tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post115416215571785231..comments2024-01-23T11:00:45.457-08:00Comments on Rastî: COLD WAR V.2Mizgînhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154492056642540142006-08-01T21:14:00.000-07:002006-08-01T21:14:00.000-07:00There was a long discussion about Ocalan's remarks...There was a long discussion about Ocalan's remarks at <A HREF="http://dozame.org/blog/2006/06/11/kdp-busted-a-gang-within-the-organization-responsible-for-over-100-murders/" REL="nofollow">DozaMe</A>. We all went over the same articles (in full) that KM used in their very WEAK retraction. It explained nothing to people who hadn't spent time going over the articles <I><B>in Turkish</B></I>.<BR/><BR/>The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" only works in the short term . . . for everyone.<BR/><BR/>Yes, they only served as pawns, so why don't Kurds ever learn anything from the bitter past? There needs to be some <B>drastic</B> rearranging of priorities and attitudes.Mizgînhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154477609357619502006-08-01T17:13:00.000-07:002006-08-01T17:13:00.000-07:00I will ask some Rojava Kurds more about it. I said...I will ask some Rojava Kurds more about it. I said I heard, because I cannot proove Öcalan said this.<BR/><BR/>Earlier Kurdmedia reported that Öcalan condemned Becikci. Later someone sent in another article, which was bigger. Then it turned out Öcalan said more then that and that the earlier news item was put ouf of context. <BR/><BR/>Kurdish media and Kurds themselves say a lot of things. But it's hard to find evidence for their claims.<BR/><BR/>Don't you think Rasti, that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tactic didn't work in Kurdistan? Just look to the civil wars between Kurds themselves. They only served as pawns and Kurds were dropped again, when they weren't needed anymore.Wladimir van Wilgenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385344748812614455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154475968171733072006-08-01T16:46:00.000-07:002006-08-01T16:46:00.000-07:00Speaking of Michael Rubin, did you bother to check...Speaking of Michael Rubin, did you bother to check the home page of MEIB to see who's on the editorial board, Vladimir? Michael Rubin is not just a member of JINSA (Clue: Read about the Deep State in the US) Looks like Pipes has given up on MEK for the time being (Check the publishers for MEIB. Pipes was a big fan of MEK, even tried to get them off The List®).<BR/><BR/>I think it's fairly obvious why Rubin turned anti-bashurî Kurd shortly after Operation Iraqi Freedom. <BR/><BR/>Hmmm. . . al-Jazeerah. . . don't they have a problem with the second Israel? Have you ever argued with Syrians? Even Syrian "human rights" people? They're Arab nationalists, just like the Ba'ath they oppose. Kurds are okay as long as they keep in their second-class place.<BR/><BR/>You "heard" that Apo condemned the Qamislo uprising? That's interesting. I never heard what you "heard," but then I hang out with PKKers. In fact, it was the opposite. Who celebrated Newroz in Rojava that year? Who shot Syrian troops during Newroz that year?Mizgînhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154467490547371442006-08-01T14:24:00.000-07:002006-08-01T14:24:00.000-07:00These are not my words. Apo is not Alawi. I heard ...These are not my words. Apo is not Alawi. I heard that Apo also condemned the uprising of Kurds in Rojava in 2004. But Kurds spread a lot of rumours, so I am not sure about that and cannot confirm this. Professor Michiel Leezenberg isn’t also very positive about PKK’s position towards the Kurds in Rojava. He is in contact with Kurdish organisations in Rojava and have written articles about them in Dutch. <BR/><BR/>I do know that not all Kurds in West-Kurdistan hold PKK in high regard. And the reason is the cooperation between the PKK and Assad. I also meet pro-PKK Kurds from West-Kurdistan. But I think they were related to the PKK.<BR/><BR/>The fact is that former PKK members now end up in the Syrian prison.Wladimir van Wilgenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385344748812614455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154463728512326102006-08-01T13:22:00.000-07:002006-08-01T13:22:00.000-07:00if i'm not mistaken... Vladimir did just give some...if i'm not mistaken... Vladimir did just give some links... don't you see them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154443532630529812006-08-01T07:45:00.000-07:002006-08-01T07:45:00.000-07:00Anonymous: Yes.Vladimir. Short answer (will give l...Anonymous: Yes.<BR/><BR/>Vladimir. Short answer (will give longer answer later if I have time).<BR/><BR/>Ocalan is NOT alewite (he is from Amara, Ruha). Secondly, the alewites in Turkey, northern Kurdistan and those in Syria are not "same kind of" alewites. There are large differences between them. <BR/><BR/>"PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan publicly condemned the fight for Kurdish national rights in Syria"<BR/><BR/>Publicly? Then you should be able to give som links. I never heard or read that Ocalan condemned the fight for Kurdish national rights in Syria.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154423513358829962006-08-01T02:11:00.000-07:002006-08-01T02:11:00.000-07:00Syrian Kurdish political activism was also deflate...Syrian Kurdish political activism was also deflated by the Assad regime's support for Kurdish separatist groups in Iraq and Turkey. Barzani did little to help his brethren in Syria and actively worked to undermine those, such as Sabri, who refused to disavow the KDPS political platform. Syria's decision to sponsor the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) of Turkey in the early 1980s had an even more pernicious impact. After relocating to Damascus, PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan publicly condemned the fight for Kurdish national rights in Syria and frequently repeated the Assad regime's claim that most Syrian Kurds are not native to Syria. Syrian Kurdish activists often received a hostile reception at political conferences organized by the large Kurdish Diaspora in Europe because their activities were seen a threat to the PKK.<BR/><BR/>In the 1990s, the Baathist regime upgraded its sponsorship of the PKK and encouraged Syrian Kurds to join its ranks. After positive incentives, such as exemption from military service, failed to persuade sufficient numbers of Syrian Kurds join the PKK, the government began forcing Kurdish tribal leaders to fill a "quota" of recruits. By the mid-1990s, according to Turkish intelligence sources, Syrian Kurds comprised over 25% of the PKK's fighters.[3] The PKK became, in effect, an instrument of the Syrian government's repression of its own Kurdish minority.<BR/><BR/>http://www.meib.org/articles/0404_s1.htm<BR/><BR/>He[Ocalan] was more opaque about his own ties to the Syrian regime, which was effectively his host and guarantor in Lebanon. (I have heard it plausibly said that Ocalan, like Hafez al-Assad, is a member of the Alawite Muslim minority and thus has a confessional as well as a political relationship with the Syrian Baath Party. In any case, he was willing to be used as a pawn in the Syrian-Turkish rivalry over the damming of the Euphrates. And some PKK propaganda has emphasized Islamic themes among the poorer Kurds.)<BR/><BR/> It was Syria's way of interlinking Turkish control of Euphrates waters and Syrian sponsorship of the PKK as a pressure point for getting their share of water.<BR/><BR/>http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2005%20Opinion%20Editorials/April/14%20o/A%20new%20age%20for%20Turkey-Syria%20relations%20By%20K%20Gajendra%20Singh.htmWladimir van Wilgenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385344748812614455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154409505070322372006-07-31T22:18:00.000-07:002006-07-31T22:18:00.000-07:00Criticism is healthy, Urmiye, it is not just about...Criticism is healthy, Urmiye, it is not just about defaming other parties. It is about pointing the current issues within the parties in hope that they will make changes to better themselves.<BR/><BR/>If there are more urgent things to discuss, then by all means, discuss them. But some of us like to remember that the worst enemy of the Kurd unfortunately has been the Kurd... and until we first fix that problem, we will hardly achieve much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154380232945292322006-07-31T14:10:00.000-07:002006-07-31T14:10:00.000-07:00Madtom: Yes, I understand and I am happy that you ...Madtom: Yes, I understand and I am happy that you are trying to learn about the Kurds. I tried to explain that it was not recently and the context.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous: I did not want to mention any other party, that is why I wrote party X (what I wrote can actually be applied on other parties than KDP and PUK, the parties that you mentioned). The reason that I did not write the name of any party is because I think there are more urgent things to discuss than getting involved in a discussion where people start to defame other parties. I never said that you were defending the parties you mentioned.<BR/><BR/>The Kurdish organization that is under the KONGRA-GEL umbrella and that is operating in western (Syrian) Kurdistan had their first congress today. It took place in Europe and one of the guest was Haci Ahmed, leader of PJAK who said:<BR/><BR/>"It is on time that Kurds from western Kurdistan intensify the struggle in western Kurdistan. Until today they have mainly taken part in the struggle in other parts of Kurdistan. I congratulate them for this congress. The dictator Bashar el Asad has to be removed or change" (Not the everything he said, but parts of what he said)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154359553548809482006-07-31T08:25:00.000-07:002006-07-31T08:25:00.000-07:00Michael Rubin is part of JINSA. He isn't really in...Michael Rubin is part of JINSA. He isn't really independent. Although in the past he seemed a little bit pro-Kurdish. I don't know why this changed though, it was probable the money.Wladimir van Wilgenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385344748812614455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154320322530714112006-07-30T21:32:00.000-07:002006-07-30T21:32:00.000-07:00Sorry Madtom, I didn't see your latest reply.No pr...Sorry Madtom, I didn't see your latest reply.<BR/><BR/>No problem; no handgrenades here. At least, not yet :PMizgînhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154319948059091172006-07-30T21:25:00.000-07:002006-07-30T21:25:00.000-07:00By the way, Philip, let's wait and see what happen...By the way, Philip, let's wait and see what happens in the ME. We already have proxy armies, destabilization and efforts at containment. <BR/><BR/>Also you know that I am no fan of big corporations within the military-industrial complex who've been making money on Kurdish blood and bones.<BR/><BR/>I am all for live and let live. I don't even care if people like Kurds. If they don't harm Kurdish people, Kurdish people won't harm them. If they harm us, then they need a proper response.<BR/><BR/>These corporations and their pimps murder Kurdish people. I advocate a proper response against them.Mizgînhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154319514766362392006-07-30T21:18:00.000-07:002006-07-30T21:18:00.000-07:00Thanks for the exchange, I did not mean to throw a...Thanks for the exchange, I did not mean to throw a handgrenade into the room, just a question.<BR/><BR/>I understand all about dirty politics, I'm Cuban so I have been seeing it all my life. I just did not understand the context.madtomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17609777902535328244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154317047629189492006-07-30T20:37:00.000-07:002006-07-30T20:37:00.000-07:00Guys, Madtom is trying to learn about Kurds, so he...Guys, Madtom is trying to learn about Kurds, so he is asking sincere questions.<BR/><BR/>Madtom, the short rundown is this: PKK opened its first training camps in the Beka'a Valley when it was still controlled by Syria. It eventually spread over Syrian-occupied Kurdistan and had offices in Damascus. PKK maintained camps in Syria from that time until 1998, when Turkey massed troops on the border and threatened to invade to attack PKK. That was also when Syria expelled Apo.<BR/><BR/>Why would PKK find refuge there? A very simple and ancient custom in the Middle East: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Syria has had "issues" with Turkey, primarily stemming from questions over Turkish claims to Hatay province, Turkey's attempts to dam up all the water, on rivers such as the Firat (Euphrates), as Urmiye mentions, and Turkey's alliance with Israel.<BR/><BR/>Since 2003, Syria has been very warm towards Turkey, as has Iran. Under the old order, the axis of evil was Syria-Iraq-Iran, but now it has shifted to Syria-Turkey-Iran because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. . . in other words, the American presence in Iraq and whatever possible outcome that will be. They are all re-maneuvering themselves for the changes in the regional status quo.<BR/><BR/>Why would PKK agree to mouth the official Syrian line as regards Kurds? Again, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. At the time, Syrian permission to maintain training and other camps was crucial to PKK's development. Many Kurds in Syria joined PKK, with David McDowall reporting that some 7,000 of them are still reported as unaccounted for from the mid-1980's. It's assumed they died in the struggle.<BR/><BR/>Since 1998, PKK's influence in Syria has been less but, and in spite of "official pronouncements," PKK still has Rojavayî Kurds in its ranks and HPG does operate within the area--at least occasionally to my knowledge.<BR/><BR/>Urmiye, you are definitely correct that someone like Batchelor should know better if they're going to make up stuff about Kurds. There are others (Michael Rubin comes to mind) who are experts and who do know what is what, but they also make up stuff or commit sins of omission (by not mentioning) what is really going on.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous and Vladimir, I hope that helps you.<BR/><BR/>Xelef! Ser çava û serkeftin!Mizgînhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154287016848253782006-07-30T12:16:00.000-07:002006-07-30T12:16:00.000-07:00typo: I meant, "I NEVER once defended PDK or PUK'...typo: I meant, "I NEVER once defended PDK or PUK's acts"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154286947199920612006-07-30T12:15:00.000-07:002006-07-30T12:15:00.000-07:00Perhaps Madtom is new and does not know much about...Perhaps Madtom is new and does not know much about the Kurdish issue. Urmiye - you should do as you did and inform him of the present situation and that the information he currently holds is incorrect.<BR/><BR/>However, my comment about PKK undermining the Kurdish situation in Syria is different. I know this happened nearly 9 years ago, but nevertheless, it is a question that I was hoping people such as yourself or Mizgin could clarify without just denying that it happened.<BR/><BR/>You are absolutely right in comparing such relations with those of parties who had relationships with Saddam and the IRI (although I am unsure why you keep bringing that up because I once defended PDK or PUK's acts - I only simply pointed out a fact of the PKK). However, let's be realistic and say that all these Kurdish parties have played the politics at one time or the other and have shaken hands with the enemy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154254815458827972006-07-30T03:20:00.000-07:002006-07-30T03:20:00.000-07:00I see, and many Syrian Kurds says things in suppor...I see, and many Syrian Kurds says things in support to PKK.<BR/><BR/>The post on this blog is about an article that was posted recently (like on day ago, and not "recently" as 8-9 years ago) which claims that Syria today has the "strategic support of Kurdistan".<BR/><BR/>What I consider a bit strange is that someone says:<BR/><BR/>"...until recently the leader of the PKK lived in Syria."<BR/><BR/>It was almost 9 years ago that Abdullah Öcalan left and anyone who following the Kurdish issue just a little bit are well aware of the that Syria today considers PKK as terrorist and arrests, tortures and extradites Kurds from northern Kurdistan to Turkey.<BR/><BR/>"Why is party X getting support from USA? Did not party X until "recently" cooperate with Saddam/Iran?"<BR/><BR/>Is this question relevant today? I can only see the question relevant if someone knows VERY little (as much as JOHN BATCHELOR) about the Kurdish issue. Because most people who are following the Kurdish issue know how the situation is today, and why it was another situation 10 years ago.<BR/><BR/>If someone is following the Kurdish issue and are claiming that Abdullah Öcalan until "recently" lived in Syria, that person problably wants to make a another point (like showing "dissatifaction" with PKK relations to Syria almost 9 years ago) , rather than asking a question Syria getting the stratigic support of the Kurds today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154243129286411162006-07-30T00:05:00.000-07:002006-07-30T00:05:00.000-07:00Kurds from Syria were the ones making those claims...Kurds from Syria were the ones making those claims. They were quoted by journalists such as Christiane Bird as saying that PKK and Ocalan had made statements at that time that the Kurds of Syria are not real Kurds. This may have been to appease the Syrian gov who was allowing them refuge within Syrian borders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154228957896222012006-07-29T20:09:00.000-07:002006-07-29T20:09:00.000-07:00Anonymous: And some even goes as far as claiming t...Anonymous: And some even goes as far as claiming that Kurds from Syria got better in some aspects when PKK were there. There are always texts who wents "as far as...."<BR/><BR/>There are far better examples of how some Kurdish groups undermine Kurds from other parts. And those examples were not set by the PKK.<BR/><BR/>As I mentioned earlier. Syria allowed PKK precence until 1998, but the relation between Syria and PKK is not comparible with the classical relationship between a Kurdish party in one country and their cooperation with the bordering country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154228634736136262006-07-29T20:03:00.000-07:002006-07-29T20:03:00.000-07:00Madtom: "Recently" is something like 8 years ago. ...Madtom: "Recently" is something like 8 years ago. Even though PKK can be critisized for using the Beeka Walley (which was then controlled by Syria) as a training camp for its guerillas the PKK never used force against the Kurds from Syria (in comparison to how other states used Kurds from the other side of the borde against "their own Kurds). Syria let PKK be there because they hand a conflict regarding the water from the Eufrat with Turkey.<BR/><BR/>Since 1998 PKK is considered as terrorist by Syria and Syria are arresting member of PKK handing those from northern Kurdistan to Turkish authorities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154223783859201812006-07-29T18:43:00.000-07:002006-07-29T18:43:00.000-07:00In regards to Madtom's statement, it was noted in ...In regards to Madtom's statement, it was noted in a few different texts that the PKK actually had undermined the Kurdish issue in Syria in order to please Syrian leaders...one text even went as far as to say that the PKK announced at that time that they did not consider Kurds in Syria as Kurds. As a result, PKK lost support from Kurds there... <BR/><BR/>...perhaps this is one way they were able to seek refuge there? Don't know why Syria didn't mind attacks on Turkey though... what do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154220958801016522006-07-29T17:55:00.000-07:002006-07-29T17:55:00.000-07:00I'd think long and hard before making "The Nation"...I'd think long and hard before making "The Nation" the interpreter of the new international constellation. Weren't they last seen blasting Gorbachev for being insufficently Marxist?<BR/><BR/>They really are an American version of a TURKISH-STYLE political rag, I don't see how they add to Rasti's credibility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154214362519134512006-07-29T16:06:00.000-07:002006-07-29T16:06:00.000-07:00Yes, explain this Rasti...Yes, explain this Rasti...Wladimir van Wilgenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385344748812614455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-1154192241809182482006-07-29T09:57:00.000-07:002006-07-29T09:57:00.000-07:00I'm glad you bring this up, the other day I read s...I'm glad you bring this up, the other day I read somewhere, and I don't remember where, that until recently the leader of the PKK lived in Syria. And I thought to myself Syria? don't the Kurds have it even worse in Syria, where their language is illegal and they don't get citizenship and all kinds of abuse. So I wanted to ask you if that was true, and if so why would the leader of the PKK find refuge in a place like Syria?madtomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17609777902535328244noreply@blogger.com