tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post7158754222059361840..comments2024-01-23T11:00:45.457-08:00Comments on Rastî: TURKEY: GUARANTEEING HUMAN RIGHTS GLOBALLYMizgînhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-61535436380152976492008-12-19T07:06:00.000-08:002008-12-19T07:06:00.000-08:00I completely agree that the Turkish "milliyetci" i...I completely agree that the Turkish "milliyetci" is in a class by itself and I knew when you referred to Cicek as a classic milliyetci exactly what you were implying. <BR/><BR/>However, diagnosing the problem is half the battle. Disassociating racism, inequality and chauvinism from the patriotic sentiment is an important step Turks, foremost, must take. The new generation has to learn that defending Turkey and perhaps even being a nationalist Turk may mean a struggle against the classic "milliyetci" way of thinking.<BR/><BR/>~nistimanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-75878177561592847012008-12-12T21:35:00.000-08:002008-12-12T21:35:00.000-08:00I like Nistiman's analysis.There are obviously man...I like Nistiman's analysis.<BR/><BR/>There are obviously many kinds of nationalism, just as there are many kinds of patriotism.<BR/><BR/>Scottish nationalism means, "I think Scotland ought to be an independent country, just as it was before. I think we should debate and vote on it."<BR/><BR/>Turkish nationalism means, "All the people in Anatolia are Turks now, whether they like it or not. The nation is One. It will not be divided. To debate is treason. If you question this, we will either put you in jail or kill you."<BR/><BR/>When I referred to nationalism, obviously I was thinking of Turkish nationalism. Turkey's paranoid, childish version is in a class by itself.<BR/><BR/>I equate nationalism with jingoism, chauvinism, and other forms of extreme patriotism. I don't know if that's correct--it's just my way of thinking.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-58489917272088861072008-12-12T12:49:00.000-08:002008-12-12T12:49:00.000-08:00When I was visiting Scotland, I met the SNP (Scoti...When I was visiting Scotland, I met the SNP (Scotish Nationalist Party) leader Alex Salmon. Untill that time (1994) my way of understanding the nationalism was what was tought in the Turkish schools under the kemal's 'milliyetcilik' doctorine, according to this doctroine Turks are the superior race to any other nation in the world. Loving your own nation meant to stay quite and accept everything that your government (who is choosen by the superier Turks) offer you. Due to camel's this doctorine almost every single turks see all the people around the world as enemy. Hate, jellouse, phsical abuse, murder etc against the people who are not Turk in that country must be one of the worst in the world.<BR/><BR/>Ok, cut the long story short... Alex Salmon explained me why he is nationalist and what he is intend to achive by being a nationalist. Such nation who's history goes back to ancient times probably before the English which had in the past had their own king and the queen, language, culture etc, being undermined by the English central system made him nationalist and he said, untill all Scotland become complete independent he will stay nationalist. <BR/><BR/>After talking to him, Scotland had a referandum for complete autonomy and the old parliement in Scotland opened its doors for the Scotish members. SNP still exists and struggles for complete independance from the UK. <BR/><BR/>I guess this is what you mean by seeing nationalism way of political patriotism.<BR/><BR/>You need to remember nistiman, in our part of the world nationalism seen totaly in different perspective then in the west. baath's arab nationalism, camel's turkish nationalism, miloseviches serbian nationalism are not very good examples to be proud off...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-23394715281476027192008-12-12T08:23:00.000-08:002008-12-12T08:23:00.000-08:00My understanding is that patriotism is a feeling -...My understanding is that patriotism is a feeling -- a love for one's own people or nation. It may not take any manifestations politically. It is a feeling of love or affection for your culture, your language, the customs and way of life of your people, and a desire to support the policies of your government. Surely, this feeling – at its extreme – can lead to racism or xenophobia as well. <BR/><BR/>Nationalism, to me at least, connotes a more political project to advance one’s nation or people’s interests. I would also group people who want to establish some sort of political order (it doesn’t have to be a nation-state, it could be a con-federal state as well) as nationalists since it involves organizing a people to advance their political, social and economic interests. It makes sense that a people who do not have a nation-state and whose rights are not protected through the rule of law would become nationalists and want to advance the rights and interests of their own nation or people. <BR/><BR/>Of course, nationalism could be driven to an extreme by some who would like to assert the interests of their own nation/people at the expense of others and without any regard to basic principles which are sacrosanct. This can very easily lead to imperialism, racism, etc...<BR/><BR/>To me, a nationalist is a patriot on a political mission. <BR/><BR/>~nistimanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-5833082409928582642008-12-12T00:00:00.000-08:002008-12-12T00:00:00.000-08:00I would hate to become nationalist myself but in t...I would hate to become nationalist myself but in the mean time I have no real objections for people in any country to be nationalist as long as their love of the country does not harm the other individuals or the people of other ethnic minority which I would define as racism or fascism.<BR/><BR/>I don't think you could measure someone's love of her country by their amount of nationalism as it can clearly be see in the Turkish example that this would change into hardline-neo-nazi fascism.<BR/><BR/>I would say that the nationalism either in Turkey or in South Kurdistan are not real but only used for individuals selfish interests. Nationalism is used by these both backward regimes to brain-wash and use people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-69152103026229652272008-12-11T21:07:00.000-08:002008-12-11T21:07:00.000-08:00oh, i wasn't really anonymous 2...i forgot the ~ni...oh, i wasn't really anonymous 2...i forgot the ~nistiman...and now that I re-read my post hopefully the OCD reference will make better sense :)<BR/><BR/>i don't think i agree that nationalism is inherently racist, although excessive nationalism (Ultra-nationalism, or maybe chauvinism is the correct word) would lead to racism.<BR/><BR/>Some Dictionary defns of "nationalism":<BR/>- the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.<BR/><BR/>- devotion and loyalty to one's own nation<BR/><BR/>- the desire for national advancement or independence<BR/><BR/>- excessive patriotism; chauvinism (but, in my opinion this is nationalism to an extreme and isn't properly "nationalism"<BR/><BR/><BR/>But, I can see how the meaning of nationalism is being changed over time in order to drive home the point that peoples seeking independence is bad.<BR/><BR/>~nistimanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-56855690663694300502008-12-11T09:33:00.000-08:002008-12-11T09:33:00.000-08:00Yes, Gordon, I agree with Einstein's assessment of...Yes, Gordon, I agree with Einstein's assessment of nationalism. You are probably aware of the Turkish-Islamic Synthesis, so it should come as no surprise to you that the AKP is virulently nationalistic.<BR/><BR/>The headscarf fiasco is merely a distraction which AKP uses to portray itself as a "victim". It's <B><I>always</I></B> a "victim". See more at <A HREF="http://www.counterpunch.org/ece12032008.html" REL="nofollow">Counterpunch</A>.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous 2, if Turks were merely proud of their culture, language, etc., then we could say that they were patriots. Instead, their pride in their ethnicity goes hand-in-glove with racism on an institutional and individual level--the individual being the result of constant inculcation by The System.<BR/><BR/>Nationalism is inherently racist. Patriotism is not necessarily so.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous 1, I use the term "turd" in its literal meaning--a piece of shit--not as a pun. I will continue to use the term that way, as necessary when appropriate . . . such as in the case of Cicek.Mizgînhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01850990661771197094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-87982506122539615762008-12-11T07:24:00.000-08:002008-12-11T07:24:00.000-08:00Maybe some people will think I have OCD fixating o...Maybe some people will think I have OCD fixating on the nationalism issue but Cicek's attitude is not one simply of nationalism. It is not xenophobia -- a hatred of foreigners -- either. Turks are quite generous towards tourists who visit and as a people are generally hospitable and friendly. Their (to speak generally) hatred, their intolerance is aimed solely and directly against the Kurds and Armenians -- and this manufactured racism against these two groups is cloaked in nationalism. So, I think the fundamental problem is racism. <BR/><BR/>Turks can be nationalistic -- that is, they can continue to be proud of their culture, their language, their flag, etc.. without depriving the Kurds of their essential rights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-49755345448836907842008-12-11T06:10:00.000-08:002008-12-11T06:10:00.000-08:00please dont use turd next time, it is offensive to...please dont use turd next time, it is offensive to non racist turks.<BR/>thank youAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19312979.post-24599964409789847052008-12-11T00:32:00.000-08:002008-12-11T00:32:00.000-08:00Yeah, Cicek is a classic milliyetci. It's always s...Yeah, Cicek is a classic milliyetci. It's always someone else's fault. Nothing like this could happen here. Why are you accusing us? Look what you have done! It is the defense of a child: <I>"Why are you picking on me, Mom? Johnny did it too!"</I> As Einstein said, "Nationalism is a childhood disease."<BR/><BR/>I have to say, nobody who looks realistically at Turkish politics can have any doubts about why people would want to start throwing bombs. Obviously you (and others) are right: General Boshboo must have laid down the law right after he succeeded Buyukanit (probably General BigTomb helped him). Now political survival is the game for Erdogan: talk a bunch of rightwing crap in desperate hope of taking votes from the MHP, since Erdogan surely must know that he's lost the Kurdish vote that he got in the last election. Forget about Europe, and screw reform. Hell, if Erdogan really cared about reform, why would he have picked headscarves as the first thing to go after?Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.com