Sunday, August 10, 2008

MORE ON THE BTC OPERATION

"Such operations against economic resources, we think, have a deterrence characteristic in the war that aims to annihilate a people in Turkey. Naturally our operations will continue if the Turkish state persists in this war."
~ Dr. Bahoz Erdal, HPG Headquarters Commander.


More on the BTC pipeline operation from Yeni Özgür Politika and Dr. Bahoz Erdal:


"Guerrillas will continue to strike the economy"

HPG Headquarters Commander Erdal said, "We think that attacks against economic resources have a deterrence effect in a war that aims to annihilate a people. If the Turkish state insists on waging the war, similar operations [by us] will continue."

Commenting on the sabotage against the BTC oil pipeline, HPG Headquarters Commander Dr. Bahoz Erdal said, "Naturally, such operations will continue if the Turkish state insists on war." While the fire at the BTC oil pipeline, by sabotage, continues, more sabotage news came from Tatvan. In its statement, HPG announced that the guerrillas conducted a sabotage against a loaded train, heading from Tatvan to Muş, that was carrying military materiel. HPG Headquarters Commander, Dr. Bahoz Erdal warned as follows: "We think that attacks against economic resources have a deterrence effect in a war that aims to annihilate a people. If the Turkish state insists on waging the war, similar operations [by us] will continue."

The 29th and 31st valves of the pipeline are still not opened; they were shut down after a sabotage operation was conducted by HPG forces against the BTC crude oil pipeline, between Erzincan and Refahiye on 5 August. Officials mentioned the fire was ongoing but under control; however, they did not reveal any particular date when [the fire] would end. Because of the fire, caused by the sabotage operation, oil cannot be delivered to customers. Since the stored 7 million barrels of oil were loaded onto ships in Ceyhan, the process of loading oil has been stopped. BOTAŞ officials announced that they would need one to two weeks after extinguishing the fire, in order to solve the problem. After this statement, oil prices increased.

One more sabotage

In a statement yesterday from HPG, BİM announced that a sabotage operation was conducted against a train carrying military materiel on 6 August. Regarding the sabotage operation between Tatvan and Muş, HPG gave the following details: "Our HPG forces conducted a sabotage operation against a cargo train that was carrying military materiel, heading from Tatvan to Muş. After the sabotage operation, one wagon was destroyed completely and four were derailed and turned over. After the operation, two Cobra-type helicopters, which came to the scene [of the derailment], randomly bombed the area."

Convoy ambushed

HPG BİM announced that a mobile military convoy was ambushed on the road between Şemdinli and Gerdiya on 7 August. The vehicle carrying 13 troops was targeted and destroyed completely. BİM said: "While enemy casualties in this vehicle are still not clarified, three enemy troops were killed and three were wounded in the operation, which began after the ambush."

Dr. Bahoz Erdal: Attacks against economic resources will continue

According to an interview with ANF, HPG Headquarters Commander Bahoz Erdal pointed out KCK leader Abdullah Ocalan's calls for the peaceful and democratic solution of the Kurdish question; Erdal said, "The period since 1993 is full of calls for democratic dialog, ceasefire announcements, peace packages and projects. However, despite all these efforts, the Turkish state continues its denial and annihilation policies." Dr. Erdal continued, "Despite our persistent approach and declarations of unilateral ceasefires, denial policies and annihilation operations create an unresolved and chaotic environment."

"There is a comprehensive attack against us"

Dr. Erdal continued as follows: "As the Kurdistan people's freedom struggle defense force, HPG, we endeavored not to intensify the clashes and were very concerned about this. However, especially in recent years, isolationist policies and psychological warfare, [directed] particularly against our leadership that went beyond limits, forced us, as an army, into a defense war with great intensity. The attempts to lynch our people in the 2008 spring Newroz celebration, overdosed annihilation attacks within Turkey's boundaries, and also the aerial and land attacks against our guerrilla forces in South Kurdistan, naturally and rightfully necesitated our raising the bar of our legal self-defense struggle."

"We think it will be a deterrent"

"Targeting the economic resources which nourish the war that the Turkish state implements against the Kurdish people and democratic-advanced humanity, came about in these bases," said Dr. Bahoz Erdal. "Such operations against economic resources, we think, have a deterrence characteristic in the war that aims to annihilate a people in Turkey. Naturally our operations will continue if the Turkish state persists in this war."


In the meantime, the Western-backed Georgian government invaded South Ossetia Friday, which prompted a Russian response. Part of that response consisted in aerial bombing of the area through which the BTC pipeline runs:


Early Saturday, Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital was bombed by warplanes during the night and that bombs fell in the area of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline. He also said two other Georgian military bases were hit and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.


Georgian aggression has been encouraged not only by the US, which has equipped and trained the Georgian military, but also by Israel and for the same reasons, according to DebkaFile:


Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.


I guess DebkaFile missed the news at the end of July, that Gazprom is now the ruler of Turkmenistan's energy supplies:


Gazprom, Russia's energy leviathan, signed two major agreements in Ashgabat on Friday outlining a new scheme for purchase of Turkmen gas. The first one elaborates the price formation principles that will be guiding the Russian gas purchase from Turkmenistan during the next 20-year period. The second agreement is a unique one, making Gazprom the donor for local Turkmen energy projects. In essence, the two agreements ensure that Russia will keep control over Turkmen gas exports.


In addition to having an interest in the transport of energy supplies through Georgia, Turkey is also a supplier of its military materiel.

The regional pipelines are the real reason for NATO and the West to provoke Russia through proxy Georgia, and if Russian aerial bombardment does not damage the BTC pipeline, South Ossetian "separatists" will:


The first major attack on the pipeline took place only last week - not in Georgia but in Turkey where part of it was destroyed by PKK separatist rebels.

Output from the pipeline, which is 30 per cent owned by BP and carries more than 1 per cent of the world's supply, is likely to be on hold for several weeks while the fire is extinguished and the damage repaired.

But the threat of another attack by separatists in Georgia itself is very real.

Only a few days before the Turkish explosion, Georgian separatists threatened to sabotage the pipeline if hostilities continued.


Good! It's definitely time to target the oppressors where they live, and that's their energy resources.

73 comments:

Kawe said...

Well said Mizgîn. Erdal sure knows what he's talking about. Going for economical targets such as pipelines is an excellent strategy.

The Georgian aggression against South Ossetia seem to have not been noticed by the world. It's as if they had a blackout and woke up when Russia retaliated. It's very typical of the western world - the hypocrisy. Swedens own foreign minister Carl Bildt (a pro-turkish weasel) condemned Russia for flying over Gerogias air space with fighter aircrafts. Hmmm how come he never uttered a word in defense of the Kurds while Turkey did the same thing earlier this year? It might be because he has invested millions in the Turkish military.

Turkish E.T. said...

Question:
"Russia for flying over Gerogias air space with fighter aircrafts. Hmmm how come he never uttered a word in defense of the Kurds while Turkey did the same thing earlier this year?.."


Hmm. Maybe it's because Georgia is a country with a border integrity while -Kurds- are just an ethnic identity with an offshoot terrorist fraction that embraces the worst terrorist tactics?

These "economic" tactics are an old play in this game. We have seen the examples of it when Kurdish terrorists were attacking touristic sites claiming it's to break Turkey's dependence on tourism income. as if Kurds don't live in Turkey but elsewhere... way to go intellect of kurdish terrorists.

It is interesting how you talk about a bunch of bandits on a mountain as defenders of an entire culture, whereas that culture itself is effected by what these clueless mountain men with definite resistance-to-change syndrome are doing, only with bombs and rifles.

Nobody even cares for them anymore and all they are capable is planting bombs and scream "you done me wrong!"

it makes me wonder, what does a kurdish terrorist do when his girlfriend leaves him? shoots her entire family?

Anonymous said...

The truth is that the PKK is damned if they use violence and force and damned if they don't. Either way, I can't imagine any action or gesture that will change Turkey's stance toward the PKK or the Kurdish problem.

Seems like it's more than just the Kurds who have a "resistance-to-change syndrome" :) and more than just the PKK who believe "bombs and rifles" will be the solution. Isn't that the reason Turkey is hell bent on its military operations?

And, strangely enough, when I hear Turkey's officials crying about the "bunch of bandits" in "Iraq", I think that the only thing Turkey is capable of doing is blowing up Kurdish villages and crying pathetically "the Bandits done me wrong" ;)

Being cluelesss mountain men, I might excuse the PKK, but what excuse does Turkey and its fine, cultured officials have?

Nistiman

Kawe said...

Finally a Turkish muddle-headed fanatic speaks his mind. When I brought up the comparison between Russia’s defiance of it’s neighbours borders with Turkey’s ditto I had something quite else in mind from what you elaborated around. Because you see the Kurds have an autonomous region which is located in the north of Iraq and it’s called Kurdistan – although three other Kurdish regions are currently being occupied by terrorist states. One of whom my muddle-headed fanatic is well acquainted with. But not only did Turkey violate Kurdistan’s borders, it also violated Iraq’s borders and air space. I’m astonished that you knew so little about simple geography.

But the example I gave has more to it than that. Georgia attacked an ethnic minority and their semi-autonomous region within its borders. No reprimand was directed towards Tbilisi. Approximately 1000 South Ossetians killed within a matter of a few days and hours. Even Russian peace keeping troops within South Ossetia were killed. And still no condemnation. I guess the perpetrator has to be a communist for the world to react.

And if you knew half of what you claimed to know I reassure you, you would have read the articles about Carl Bildts involvement with the TSK.

Hmm, “the worst terrorist tactics”? That’s interesting. Invading another country and damaging property worth tens of millions of dollars, killing a few civilians, injuring many more, making thousands of Kurdish civilians homeless, killing livestock and so on – if that’s not state terrorism then you’ve opened my eyes to a whole new world.

When a state occupies another state or people then they are entitled to take up arms to defend themselves and beat back the occupiers. It was true during the Second World War, East Timor, South Africa, Cuba and it’s also true about Kurdistan.

Furthermore, last time I checked Amnesty International didn’t consider Turkey to be a democracy. It’s a ruthless terrorist state that silences and targets dissidents, activists and minorities.

But I really can’t blame Turkey for being one of the worst regimes around the eastern Mediterranean. The last 100 years or so they have been conducting genocide after genocide on ethnic minorities within it’s made up borders. No wonder they haven’t had time to develop some degree of a free society which most European (Turkey claim to belong to Europe) countries have – it’s been too busy killing people. And not to forget denying they ever killed anyone in the first place, if that don’t plan out then you just call them terrorists. Turkey is also by the way known for it’s amicable war tactics such as bombing villages with napalm (alternatively annihilate them in various other ways) turning millions of Kurds into refugees, decapitating captured Kurdish guerrilla fighters (mutilating them in various other ways) or simply execute them - burn their bodies and show them to their relatives. Way to go Turkey!

The Kurdish resistance movement are not the soul defenders of the Kurdish culture, the Kurdish people and its few friends are. The resistance movement consists of women and men. And these humans beings are fighting against the TSK since Turkey has left them no other chance. All Kurdish democratic parties are shut down just like independent media channels are. And still Turkish sympathizers are wondering why there is an armed resistance movement. The movement itself has time and again said that the armed struggle is only one part of the resistance – and that it on its own can not achieve the goals of the movement.

The only bandits around are the ones in Ankara who prolongs this war and this draconian repression.

Yeah, you’re spot on, no one cares about them and yet they keep growing. And with it do the peaceful protests from the people. I reckon the TSK and its contra revolutionary (i.e. terrorist groups) groups are handier with antipersonnel bombs. But you seem unwitting of that.

This all makes me wonder how a dim Turkish kemalist reacts to freedom of speech. Does 301 and assassination ring a bell?

Reber said...

Booooohooooooooooooo!! CRY CRY.. I AM A VICTIM BOOHOO CRY... Are the Kurds angels suddenly?

That's why Ocalan was a stalinist dictator, sunni Kurds participated in the massacres against christians and their fellow yezidi's, Kurdish tribes were known for their regular raids and enslavement of christian Armenians during the Ottoman time, PKK carries out false flag operations with TAK, many of the 'oppressors' of Kurds are actually assimilated Kurds (The guy on the photo with beheaded PKK-fighters is orignally a Kurd), Kurds participated in islamists attacks or fighting eachother, Kurds are heavily involved in drugs and getting allied with the enemy (PKK with Assad, Iran, Saddam, KDP with Iran, Saddam, Turkey, Syria, PUK with Saddam, Iran, Syria, etc).

What Turkish invasion are you talking about? Turks have been living in the same region as Kurds since the 10th century. Together with Armenians, Arabs, Assyrians, Chaldeans, etc, etc. Dumb nationalism. Actually the Selcuk sultan Sandjar established the region of Kurdistan.. Turks invented Kurdistan. Could end up in Turkish prison for saying something like this. But it's the truth. Kurds just want to copy the Turkish version of racism and nationalism and want their own peice of nationalistic peice of bullshit state.

Not that the Americans/Russians/Chinese, etc are any better.

Anonymous said...

How can Ocalan be a dictator, when the PKK's, and furthermore, HPG's laws are made by the guerilla and not Ocalan alone. Care to elaborate? Furthermore, it is not a known firm to be a dictator and ask for peaceful and democratic solutions time after time, in 30 years.

Looking at it, Turkey have done both these things. Not listening to their own 60-80 million people, led by a military dictatorship, avoiding political and peaceful solutions. That's your homeland my friend, not mine. Read more here:

http://hevallo.blogspot.com/2008/08/what-democratic-road-for-kurds-in.html

Leave those tribes and Muslim Kurds behind, we are not discussing that. Everyone did those things back then, heck, I'll even call it normal in that time. We are talking about PKK. So how many civilian lives have PKK taken? I can't tell you. But last time PKK bombed a place and all that bullshit you are mentioning is waaay back, years back. While you see Iranian, Turkish and Syrian attacks on Kurdish villages DAILY.

In the end, if civilian lives is your criteria of who and what you are gonna support, then PKK will be your answer. Not your own motherland Turkey nor Iran nor Syria - these terror states have taken away milions of lives.

Anonymous said...

I don't quite understand what point Reber was trying to make...What's the point of mentioning the mistakes of the Kurds? Would it have made a difference if the Kurds were Angels? Would anyone be offering them a state if they were? Is there some government body or organization that Reber knows that delivers Statehood based on meritocracy? :) Let us know, tell us the rules, then, maybe we will struggle for Sainthood :)

But I suspect Reber just fell into his own logical fallacy because he gives away his answer when he says "boo hoo, cry cry" -- meaning, the Kurds shouldn't complain coz no one really gives a damn :)

The Kurds have never demanded to wipe off our oppressors from the face of the earth. We just want our share of respect and dignity.

And last time I checked, neither the PKK, nor the KDP, nor the PUK, nor the KDPI, nor PJAK nor any other Kurdish political party got together to cry about it :) We've taken up arms to fight for our rights -- not like angels, but like real men (and women) :)

Nistiman

Mizgîn said...

Oh, let's see . . . who is it that eternally brays in world media that they are victims of so-called "terrorism"?

If Ocalan "was a stalinist dictator," after years of seeking negotiation, political solution, and numerous ceasefires that always ended up unilateral, then give me a "stalinist dictator" any day over the alleged "democrats" in Turkey, the US, or Europe.

Let's see, who was it who apologized for those Kurds who supported the genocidal Young Turks and assisted them with the genocide of Armenians? Oh, yeah, it was Ocalan and the KNK, along with Ozgur Gundem. Again, give me the "stalinist dictator" any day over the genocide deniers of the Ankara regime and their enablers worldwide.

Let's see, who is it that supports Ocalan and PKK in Armenia? Oh, yeah, it's the Yezidi Kurds. I guess they prefer "stalinist dictators" against all the "democrats" in the Ankara regime, too.

If Reber knew anything about his own history, he'd know there is no such thing as an "assimilated" Kurd. Go read Ziya Gokalp, the original expositor of modern Turkish theology, and you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Turkish Hezbollah was another genocide attempt by the genocidal Ankara regime because Turkish Hezbollah was established by the Ankara regime. Tansu Ciller armed Turkish Hezbollah from military garrisons in Turkish-occupied Kurdistan. But then the monster got out of control, didn't it, otherwise it wouldn't be giving Turkish cops exactly what they deserve outside the US consulate in Istanbul.

The only Kurd I can think of who was heavily involved in Turkey's narcotics industry was the Baybasin clan. Huseyin spilled his guts, bragging about all his connections on NTV. What an embarassment for the regime! I guess that's why they wanted him extradited from The Netherlands. I guess, too, that TSK's little stay in Afghanistan has helped that economy develop it's own heroin processing industry. Of course, the reality is that neither Reber nor anyone else has ever produced any evidence to support the Ankara regime's claim that PKK ever was heavily involved in narcotics. That's because such evidence is non-existent.

Now, child, if you paid attention to the news, you'd know that TSK got its collective ass kicked by HPG during its February invasion of Southern Kurdistan, which is a legitimate region in the sovereign state of Iraq. But this is always the way it is, isn't it, every time TSK has invaded South Kurdistan. Even with KDP fighting alongside TSK, THEY STILL WENT HOME IN BODY BAGS AND GAINED NOTHING.

And exactly how did TSK treat its own soldiers who were held as prisoners of war after Daglica? Funny, isn't it, that HPG treated those soldiers better than TSK treats them since their return?

No, Turks didn't invent Kurdistan; Turks invented Turkey. After all, Turkey never existed before 1923. Turkey's just another "nationalistic peice [sic] of bullshit state".

The "victims" are still are still making widows of your soldiers and police. So go ahead and cry me a fucking river over that, Reber.

Reber said...

Ocalan has been killing every possible threat to his power. No wonder almost nothing is left any more of the good ol' PKK-leadership. Everybody can offer ceasefires. Like Georgia. Doesn't say anything about their democratic mindset.

I don't give a shit about Turkey. Off course they don't achieve anything against the PKK guerilla's. America couldn't and Russia couldn't [Against guerilla warfare]. Currently NATO is screwing up Afghanistan totally. Why would Turkey be able to do this.

So don't start about Turkey. It's a facist state. But go ahead and be a fucking hypocrite, while Ocalan used to lick the ass of Assad and the PKK gave information about the positions of KDP/PUK peshmerga to Saddam in the good ol' days or the cooperation between PKK and the Iranian pashdaran and their good ol' bases in the Urmiyeh and Mako region. PKK have never fought for a 'greater Kurdistan', but only for their own benefit and mostly for the Kurds from Turkey.

Go ahead and think about that. While you live in a country you despise as much as Turkey.

hamo said...

Mizgin said,
'If Reber knew anything about his own history'

Turks have a lot of growing up to do regarding to their history but most Turks that I have met in my time rather know their history but they can not face it. Fascist Turkish state want everyone in Turkey to believe they moved to Turkey from Central Asia but every single DNA evidence show the relation between the people of Turkey and the central Asia is minimal and only 3% of them directly relate to central Asia which they moved to Turkey during the last century and indirectly only 9% of people have some sort of little connection with the central Asian people. People who consider themselves Turks should only look at the mirror and compare their faces with their so-called central Asian relatives.

and the Reber says,

'So don't start about Turkey. It's a fascist state. But go ahead and be a fucking hypocrite'

First of all you fascist and racist Turks should learn how to discuss things in political and humane manner before swearing and insulting your counterparts.

and Reber also says,

PKK have never fought for a 'greater Kurdistan'

PKK doesn't fight for anything but the people who make-up the PKK fight for the things. PKK is just a name or a title and nothing else without the millions of Kurds support PKK can not do anything. So, the PKK totally depend on the people who support them and they act with their wishes. As you mentioned above in one of your post regarding PKK's worldwide popularity, which shows, how the organization is so powerful.

By the way mentioning PUK and PDK to offend Kurds would not work because most Kurds realizes these two shameless criminal parties do not represent the Kurds at all but their two jashes clans personal interests.

Reber said...

Fighting for the people, while making deals with dictators that kill your own people..?!?! You are one crazy fellow.

Anonymous said...

I agree with that aspect of Reber's point. Making deals with dictators who support you with one hand and who kill other Kurds with the other is Ignoble and undoubtedly, the Kurds' vulnerability to such "compromises" in their principles has persistently impeded our progress. I can't think of a single Kurdish leader who isn't guilty of it. No need to deny it -- it's plain and simple for everyone to observe.

To be fair though, the choices that Kurdish leaders have had to make have not been easy ones. And, a People can learn from mistakes, especially costly ones. The idea of Brakuji is abhorrent to most Kurds.

It is difficult to create a civil society in such conditions -- when every force around you is pushing you to betray other Kurds, making your very survival dependent on your betrayal and when every attempt for democratic change is stifled by reactionary forces.

~Nistiman

Reber said...

PKK has given the names of PIJAK members to Iran and guess what THEY GOT KILLED! Rasti = hypocrite. We will never forget how PKK murdered Dr. Baran in Dersim.

Anonymous said...

Reber@

you dont realize one thing. In war, no matter what, all rules are allowed. So what if PKK gave the position of various other groups to the oppressing dictatorship? It's war, PKK was in war with these groups. Even USA is giving intelligence to Iran. Why would USA do that? Why would Iran's biggest enemy do that? Because USA is at war, and their interests are threatend. And look who won the war, solely and whole, PKK won the war 100%. They have the backup of more than 70% of the Turkish Kurds and they have the support of almost evert Kurd in Europe. The people make their decission. It can't be a surprise to you that people chose PKK over KDP and PUK? It's logic. The Kurds pay PKK, and the PKK pays the Kurds back. Not like KDP and PUK, they only go with their own interest not the people's who pay them. Looking at it, PKK have created more result ALONE than any of those groups have done TOGETHER. And partly, PKK can thank the Turkish facist state for this gain of support, so I should rather thank you than hate you.

Oh, and btw, PKK is not interested in states and state making.

Anonymous said...

"Oh, and btw, PKK is not interested in states and state making."

I think some people may be shocked by this statement but I think it's a legitimate summary of the thinking within the PKK/Apoci.

I would be hard pressed to find a "true believer" who was even interested in the idea of a Kurdish state -- that is SO passe! The PKK rejects a Kurdish state not based on feasibility or impracticality but based upon principles! Take that!

The Kurds of Turkey are beyond nation states, just when the Kurds of Iraq are actually coming around to the idea...:S

Turkish E.T.'s comment that Kurds have a resistance to change syndrome is laughable, really. Trends change fast, it's hard to keep up...he should read some of PKK's literature.

~Nistiman

Reber said...

PKK is so successful that their leader is in jail and they haven't conquered one piece of ground. Since 2004 they are reorganizing again after a time of disillusion. After Ocalan got captured he did Turkey a favour and gave a lot of PKK gerilla to Turkey. Afterwards they all ended up in prison. General Dr. Baran refused to stop fighting and the PKK killed him! What a great sacrifice... not! Yes, this is war. I'm not denying this. But I'm not the one who is preaching human rights and democracy.. like the PKK.

Turkish E.T. said...

@Nistiman:
"but what excuse does Turkey and its fine, cultured officials have?"

Being a fine cultured Turk... Turkey has fine, cultured officials?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/915602/tbmm

Turkish E.T. said...

nice all around discussion. Reber says "kurds cry about human rights" anonymous says "We've taken up arms to fight for our rights -- not like angels, but like real men (and women)" which just sounds blood thirsty. (expecting a "no no you are blood thirsty" reaction here)

And some people claim that PKK achieved something. I think a kurdish song achieves much more than any bomb... and you have pkk recruiting singer Delila, delilah just so what?.. She can grab a rifle and die a martyr like she did?

Listen, your people and your culture made it to 21st century safe and strong and from now on it's impossible for it to come to an end, and yet all you guys do is plant bombs, fire rifles and claim it's for some cause that is already impossible to not achieve. Just stop and pay attention to your culture and it's needs already. The entire world is changing, unifying and yet you claim you have a "right to your sovereignty" a la 1920... This is what I mean by resistance to change.

Turkish E.T. said...

Difference between Turdish soldiers and Kurdish PKK:

"the will"

No Turkish soldier wants to be in the army. Army is a "compulsory service" in Turkey, it is mandatory. No Turkish soldier wants a rifle. I didn't, and did not fire a shot during my military service.

PKK? PKK goes and grabs a rifle at their own will and goes up to the mountains to shoot and kill. Why? Just because of history? Forget the history already, so many stories, so many facts, so many lies, so many sides just forget the history.

Reber said...

Sorry, but I don't want to be associated with a dumb nationalistic Turk. There are also a lot of Turkish soldiers who want to fight in the army and I know them. A lot of Turks in Europe also have the possibility to give up their passport, but they still go to the Turkish army.

If the PKK are terrorists, then the Turkish army are terrorists too. I still remember a few years ago a grave of Kurdish villagers was found and it was proven that they were shot by Turkish soldiers and nothing happened. Thousands of Kurdish villages got destroyed by Turkish soldiers and no one said a word.

But the PKK isn't any better. They were also responsible for killing civilians and they aren't democratic. For instance in Duhok they killed and hurt civilians, shot at civilian vehicles and were responsible for the bomb attack in city centre of Zaxo and killed around 100 civilians in 1995 during the brother war between KDP and PKK/PUK.

And PUK and KDP showed their true face when they accepted a lot of jash leaders in their ranks, who were responsible for ANFAL.

Mizgîn said...

You really can't expect anyone to believe what you say now, can you Reber? After all the Turkish propaganda you've been quoting? After you've proven that the only arguments you have are the same as all the other anti-apocular, including all the dumb nationalist Turks.

All of you are the same and your memory is highly selective. None of you mention the murder of Seid Elci by Ankara and then the subsequent murder of his comrade Seid Kirmizitoprak by Mustafa Barzani.

Some of us will never forget this betrayal of the Kurdish freedom movement in the North. And the funny thing is that if Elci and Kirmizitoprak had been successful, there's a very strong likelihood that there would be no PKK today.

But that's how history goes, isn't it?

Meanwhile, as everyone else has moved on, including the guerrillas, you and the rest of the anti-apocular remain locked in a time warp, repeating the same propaganda over and over . . .

As for an independent Kurdistan, that's not in the cards now. After all, the KRG voted to stay with Baghdad. They've had the golden opportunity to establish a pan-Kurdish political platform for five years now, and they've shown absolutely no interest in doing so. The only one to have presented a public argument for something that even vaguely approaches a unity of North and South was Aysel Tugluk, but very few understood the brilliance of her argument.

And you only have it half right, Turkish ET. Guerrillas not only go to the mountains with their wills, they also go with knowledge. They know exactly why they're fighting, which is the complete opposite of Turkish soldiers.

And that's why, after 24 years, PKK continues to kick the ass of NATO's second largest army.

Turkish E.T. said...

There is not much I can say without us diving into the historical which I think are a cliche.

I wish for peace for both cultures whether it be by propaganda, as you call it, or by mutual understanding through cultural communication I would not mind.

But I believe I do not share the same wish as this blog.

http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/122935/Blogpost-_Rasti

Reber said...

I doubt that the killing of Dr. Baran has anything to do with 'Turkish propaganda'. Ask someone from Dersim. I already mentioned that KDP/PUK employs mustahars/jash and Mustafa Barzani sold out the Kurds of Iran/Syria/Turkey. I am not selective like your rasti. It's off course easy to say I am 'making Turkish propaganda', while I'm doing the exact opposite. The big Kurdish parties all worked together with the enemies and only used Kurds from other parts for their own gain. But, for you, as an apoci, it's only relevant to critisize KDP/PUK, but not Ocalan.

Who said this:
“It is vital that we own all the martyrs who expended their efforts in the creation of the Republic [of Turkey] and in its defence as our own, to remember its creator [Ataturk] in gratitude and respect, and to salute its flag with pride.”

O yes, it was hama Apo, making propaganda for Ataturk.

Anonymous said...

Reber, you are wrong when you say Dr Baran was killed because he refused to stop fighting.
You have been writing about Dr Baran several times in order to blame PKK.
Just to show you that you are wrong, I'd like you to answer one question: in what year was Dr Baran killed?

Just answer that question and we'll see if you really know the facts.

You say: " We will never forget how PKK murdered Dr. Baran in Dersim."
But I will show you after you'll have answered my question that you don't know what you talk about and what "don't want to forget"...

You say that you're not selective like Rastî but I can tell you that you are more selective than Rastî and unfortunately in the bad way.

Elîshêr

Anonymous said...

Some blame PKK because it "cooperated" with enemies of Kurds.
It's wrong. PKK tried to use ennemies of Kurds in the interest of the Kurds, for the sake of Kurdish cause. PKK never betrayed his people. And if it did some mistakes, other Kurdish parties like PDK, YNK, PDKI or Komele did quite bigger mistakes.
If Ocalan did some mistakes, other Kurdish leaders like Barzani (Mustefa and Messûd)and Talabani did quite bigger mistakes.
Right?
OK, we should be open and blame mistakes of all parties and leaders and I blame mistakes of my party, the PKK and of my leader Ocalan.
But there is one thing that we must never forget: we fight for Kurdish cause not for a party or for a leader.
If I support PKK and Ocalan, it's because they fight for the sake of Kurdish cause and Kurdistan.
I know their mistakes but that's not a reason to say that they are betrayers.
For a similar reason, I don't agree with Hamo when he say that Barzani and Talabani did Anfal and killed their people.
That's nonsense.
What Hamo and Reber are saying about Kurdish parties and leaders is nonsense, the way they are sayins this is also nonsense.
You all know what wise people said since Ehmedê Xanî: Kurds must unite to win their rights!!
Even our ennemies like ottoman advisor German General Helmut von Moltke say the same thing!!

We must always think of the best for our people and his cause.

Elîshêr

Anonymous said...

I completely agree with you Elîshêr and it becomes apparent after some time what sort of cloth a person is made out of and out of what circumstances and intent they support, criticize or distance themselves from Kurdish political parties.

I would just add that it would be helpful for all concerned that mistakes are admitted to be as such so that we don't live with a Big Lie and we don't perpetuate myths and lies under the pretense that since the PKK is better than the KDP and PUK, their mistakes should not be open to scrunity. Everyone can point to the kiss that Talabani gave on the cheek of Saddam and sit from their Ivory Tower to criticize it, but one should first ask, Am I not guilty of a Symbolic Kiss at some point as well? Have I not paid the price for making a deal with the devil, so to speak?

But with all their faults, the Kurdish leaders do represent the Kurdish people and we are better with them and their reputations in tact. After all, what meaning can be found in a kiss if you go on and continue to struggle against a dictator? What difference does it make if Apo praised Ataturk if the PKK continues to dismantle the very essence of Kemalism? The good fight goes on even with mistakes along the way....

In that spirit, I celebrate all patriots' 15 Tebax.

~Nistiman

Reber said...

So, elisher, you believe dr. baran was killed by a handgrenade?
Dr. Baran had a different ideology within the party and he wanted more money for education of the Kurdish youth instead of weapons and he became popular. He threatened the authority of Ocaland and PKK killed him. He died in april 1994.

Hamili Yildirim from Dersim refused to follow Ocalan's orders in 1999. He was extradited to Turkey by Syria in 2006 I think.

About the murder of Sait Elci. Some say he was killed by Seid Kirmizitoprak and Kirmizitoprak was sentenced to death by KDP-Iraq.

But the other story is that Dr. Shivan fled to Barzani for Turkish gendarmas, but he was killed by Barzani.

More about PUK's and KDP's xyanat can be found here in English: http://www.irainc.org/text/nletter/su97fa97/su97fa97.html

Turkish E.T. said...

sorry to intrude into your internal seperatist discussions

but I was cruious about who Dr. Baran (a Dersimi) was and I came across this document:

http://books.google.com/books?id=KoyS17tMtDkC&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=Dr.+Baran++1994+pkk&source=web&ots=W6Q6iXDffW&sig=T7y0_y2W80cOyWQH0UYPFvEbt-Q&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA205,M1

it seems to be an academical document prepared to be very neutral.

On page 205 it mentions the allegations of Dr. Baran's "liquidation on the orders of his PKK superiors"

But what strikes my attention most was the following, I guess a short section from a history of Turkish-Kurdish 1994:
-"1994, the pkk stepped up its guerilla campaign...not only against military targets but also tikko"
-"...situation quickly escalated ... the army burned down large stretches of forest..."
-"...following several PKK attacks in which a number of school teachers and soldiers were killed
-the army proceeded to implement a quick and systematic operation to forcibly evacuate the rural areas.... kurdistan society analyses, the army had wholly or partly destroyed 137 out of 399 villages in the province of Tunceli ny november 1994"

"operations were especially destructive in the Ovacik district, a tradional stronghold of Tikko guerillas... clashes between tikko and pkk..."


I'm trying to say first and foremost:
do you think / know that PKK killed teachers?

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your answer Reber. It refutes your previous assertion.
I remind you, you said:
" After Ocalan got captured he did Turkey a favour and gave a lot of PKK gerilla to Turkey. Afterwards they all ended up in prison. General Dr. Baran refused to stop fighting and the PKK killed him!"

Now you say that Dr Baran died in 1994. So?
What should we understand about your allegations?

You also say:" Dr. Baran had a different ideology within the party and he wanted more money for education of the Kurdish youth instead of weapons and he became popular. He threatened the authority of Ocaland and PKK killed him. He died in april 1994."

Are you jocking?
You're just lying deliberately, guy! And that's not your unique lie. I'm going to list them.

First, the reason of the "elimination" of Dr Baran is not because "he wanted more money for education of the Kurdish youth instead of weapons and he became popular"!!
Let me laugh a bit!
It's totally the opposite: he was very violent and hated by the population of Dêrsîm and when you say that "he had a different ideology within the party", that's your unique true assertion. But his " different ideology" wasn't the one you say, his ideology was that PKK had to exercise terror in Dersim within all the population and that it had to eradicate TIKKO.
Only after Dr Baran being "out of order", PKK regained popolarity in Dêrsîm and even made a pact with TIKKO!!
Please stop distorting the truth, "Reber"!!
I wonder what are your aims in doing so.

Elîshêr

Anonymous said...

Another lie of Reber: he said: "PKK has given the names of PIJAK members to Iran and guess what THEY GOT KILLED! Rasti = hypocrite. "
What nonsense!!
Why would PKK give the names of PJAK members to Iran??
PJAK is PKK in East-Kurdistan!!
Where do you find ideas like these, Reber?
Are you psychologically ill?
True, you need a psychiatrist. Believe me, I'm not jocking.

A third lie:
"PKK carries out false flag operations with TAK"
What would win PKK in doing so?
What?

4-"in Duhok they killed and hurt civilians, shot at civilian vehicles and were responsible for the bomb attack in city centre of Zaxo and killed around 100 civilians in 1995 during the brother war between KDP and PKK/PUK."

The Parastin (Barzani's secret service) himself revealed that it was Turkish MIT that did this bomb attack.
Everybody today can find this information on internet.

5-"PKK gave information about the positions of KDP/PUK peshmerga to Saddam in the good ol' days or the cooperation between PKK and the Iranian pashdaran and their good ol' bases in the Urmiyeh and Mako region"
You are just becoming confused.
In fact,at best you're just ridiculous.

Elîshêr

Anonymous said...

"do you think / know that PKK killed teachers?"

Yes, Turkish E.T., I know that teachers have been killed by PKK in the beginning of guerilla war in 80's.
But saying that is incomplete.
What I also know is that many of these so-called "teachers" were in fact Turkish agents participating in the state's dirty war against Kurdish people and the forced assimilation policy in Kurdish villages.
And over all, that's very hypocrite to say that "PKK killed teachers" when you know that of killed teachers in that war the most have been pro-PKK teachers or just suspect Kurdish teachers killed by the death squads of the Turkish state!
They are within the 5000 civilians assassinated by the state.

Do you think / know that Turkish state killed teachers, Turkish E.T.?

Reber said...

Both Syria and Iran have supported the PKK (in the case of Iran, it is not very clear which segments of the establishment were involved, most likely the Revolutionary Guards and the intelligence organisation Savama). Both countries have engaged throughout the 1990s in periodic tripartite consultations with Turkey concerning developments in northern Iraq, but Syria and Iran have watched Turkey’s involvement with concern.

http://www.let.uu.nl/~martin.vanbruinessen/personal/publications/Iraq_paper_ISS.htm

That PKK gave info to Saddam about the positions of peshmerga I read in the book of Aliza Marcus I think.

Reber said...

And PJAK used to be a Kurdish student movement. Later PKK took control of the organization.

Reber said...

and do you have a link for the involvement of MIT in the Zaxo bomb attack?!

Anonymous said...

"and do you have a link for the involvement of MIT in the Zaxo bomb attack?!"

Of course, Reber:


http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:A1hTQLmoEsgJ:www.gomanweb.com/2008_gomanweb/Gomanli_yazarlar/Salih_Gocer/salih125.htm+zaxo+MIT+1995&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=fr

Elîshêr

Anonymous said...

And what you don't seem to be aware of is that this bomb attack has been attributed to YNK by PDK officials at that time, only in order to spread hatred within Behdinan population against YNK.
But in fact, Parastin knew that it was MIT that did it.

Elîshêr

Turkish E.T. said...

@Anonymous:

I don't understand. Let's be clear about this -teacher- issue then we'll get to the civilians.

I don't care about -many- anonymous teachers. Only specifically these teachers killed in 1994 by Pkk.

A) were these teachers killed by PKK in 1994 "Turkish agents participating in the state's dirty war against Kurdish people and the forced assimilation policy in Kurdish villages" ?

B) or were they just Turkish teachers?

I mean metaphorically they can also be claimed as "teachers of western powers and hegemony" by anyone, or "teachers of satanic practices" by any strict islamic terrorist organization. But was there ever a statement by PKK detailing the practices of these teachers as agents?

C) or is any turkish teacher an agent?


D) or were these "pro-PKK teachers or just suspect Kurdish teachers killed by the death squads of the Turkish state" ???

Turkish E.T. said...

this is interesting:

http://www.hrw.org/press98/nov/italy-apendix.htm

"September 17, 1993: In a raid against the teachers' club in the Egin district of Diyarbakir, PKK militants executed six civil servants."

This list doesn't mention any teachers killed in 1994.

but in any case, and in any discussion, can any pkk supporter such as all of you, absolutely reject what I say if I say:

"PKK killed non-secret-agent school teachers who were not involved in any political ideology."

... as I said, these historical discussions and your approach to them, your "yes but listen to what happened before that." approach, your "yes but turks killed teachers too" approach is sickening me.

You think you are smart enough to find the guilty in a fight where both sides are clearly attacking and killing innocents and in this discussion you are the only one who thinks -a certain side is correct-.

All of you.

You all claim PKK and it's actions are all fine.

You have trouble with your ideologies when some Turk comes along who does not approve his armies or governments previous actions nor does he approve PKK's killings which are not previous, but indeed present. One thing you should know is that there are a lot of us around who knows and does not approve the past but cannot do anything about it.

You like your Turks ultranationalist just so you can hate freely.

but when someone like me comes along you wonder ".. would I really enjoy killing this guy?" and pull the trigger anyway.

Anonymous said...

Let me be the Devil's Advocate.

Turkish E.T., imagine for a second if you were in charge of defending Kurdistan's people and its culture and language from mass-scale assimilation. Imagine millions of Kurdish children who are "initiated" into the Turkish system as they enter elementary schools and boarding schools by being forced to speak Turkish and forbidden to speak Kurdish. Imagine you are also a casualty to this systematic practice and your parents do not speak Turkish, and you cannot speak Kurdish. Imagine the ever-widening gulf between the two generations.

In the early 1990s, when the PKK was arguably at the height of its military power, when even Turkish military had little incentive to enter PKK-controlled territory, and when the PKK had publicly announced that they would target school teachers who were forcibly assimilating an indigenous population, what sort of crazy would you need to have been in order to take up your post as a well intentioned school teacher in a Kurdish town? How innocent could these school teachers possibly be?

It is time that Turks take responsibility for their unjust approach to the Kurdish problem which they help to perpetuate. It is NOT a complete defence to say "It was my orders. The state made me do it". It does not absolve you of all moral guilt.

Some of the murders of the schoolteachers may have been intentional by the PKK in order for the state to take them seriously. I haven't researched the cases individually. I do believe that the attacks were not aimed primarily against "civilians" or "the right of education". It is not the sort of reprehensible senseless attack on civilians just for the sake of terror that you make it out to be. Machiavellian, yes; blood-thirsty, no.

Not everything is black and white, as you suggest. But, it is clear from your posts that you have never attempted to understand the PKK as it understands itself and why you must strip all the intentions behind the violence in order to come up with the good and bad guys. If it was simply "acts" without their "intentions" that created guilt, well, our legal systems and our very understanding of Justice would certainly be in for a shock.

~nistiman

Turkish E.T. said...

Nistiman,

First of all, please choose one of the options I provided above. It seems to me the one you chose was B) They were only Turkish teachers.

First and a half:
The reason I am here is because I don't believe in black and white, but when noone here is slightly condemning the death of these teachers, and everyone here is asking for more bomb attacks against Turkey and everyone here is presenting opinions that Turkish government, and even Turkish civilians are the only responsible for this situation... you scare me.

Second: You are getting lost in your own historical details. So allow me to tell one big statement that I believe should be our priority:

EXISTENCE PRECEDES ESSENCE.

The prime statement of existentialism. :)

I believe we are in enough agreement to accept this statement in all actions of PKK and Government.

Now. In light of this statement, Turkey, as a country, exists. so the way you see these Turkish teachers going into Kurdistan, it is actually against this statement.
Kurdistan does not exist. No offense, there is or was just no kurdish school those kids can go to.

So some teacher who was given a task to teach in anatolia, was actually the only teacher who could be given that task by the only authority who could give that task. That teacher could have been me and I would take the task clueless of people like you who can put a hero cloak on simple murderers and claim I just dont understand the ethics of it all. :)


<<<"what sort of crazy would you need to have been in order to take up your post as a well intentioned school teacher in a Kurdish town? How innocent could these school teachers possibly be?">>>

Again, nistiman, existence precedes essence, I'm sure Turkish army has an explanation on attacking villages as well, but neither of us wants to hear it, I don't want to research all these here and there or give an elaborate reasons without even a slight feeling of condemnation over these. The fact is that Turkish army burned down innocent village, the fact is that PKK killed innocent teachers.

*I* as a Turk condemn burning of villages.

but if those villages harbor murderers of a teacher I knew, and refuse to give them up... I don't know, I'm human before I am a Turk.

tough situation. so lets forget history.

Now in light of the discussions here as much as I try to be neutral, I see traces of insanity. I am about to loose it too.

I mean, dude, you kill a teacher dude. :) Seriously, wake up, the kid that the teacher had taught would hardly loose his kurdish identity, as a matter of fact it is better of he is educated by a turk, an american or an israeli than he is not educated at all... you loose more of your culture by some uneducated kid without any options in life who joins the pkk instead of going to a turkish college!

I think I'm clueless as to who I am talking with here. did you guys go to college? are you writing from the mountain while eating around some camp fire or something?

arent you a kurd, and am I not a Turk and are we not writing in English?

apart from the fact that I live in USA, happily, without even a slight feeling of responsibility of -representing my turkish culture- I don't understand why today, in 2008, and you scared of loosing your culture entirely and why you are still bombing and still killing. stop for good already.

Look at you giving "Machiavellian" arguements. :) (the absurdity of really made me smirk in awe) When did kurds get the Machiavellian card? Can Turks use the same card as well or is it exclusively made for the power of Kurds?

People, Kurds, please, can someone stand up and say:

"Yes, the PKK killed Turkish teachers who were not related with any cause, just teachers, I am sorry about it and I deeply condemn it but don't expect us to mention that in this blog!"

PEACE!

Turkish E.T. said...

@anonymous: <<<"most have been pro-PKK teachers or just suspect Kurdish teachers killed by the death squads of the Turkish state...Do you think / know that Turkish state killed teachers, Turkish E.T.?.">>>

No. I can't imagine Turkish state killing teachers.

Can you please give an example of a Kurdish teacher killed? Are we assuming that there was going to be a kurdish state formed and some of the kurds around the region were going to be trained as Kurdish teachers teaching Kurdish history and Kurdish language

or just Kurdish teachers, teaching Turkish yet still killed by Turkish army? Were there any?

Confusing.

Anonymous said...

First of all, setting aside the fact that you've assumed that your supposed axiom "Existence Precedes Essence" is irrefutable and a self-evident truth, I have never encountered such a crude application of a metaphysical claim.

As it stands, to me, it merely states a chronology. Existentialism does not, as far I have understood it, claim that Essence is irrelevent and Existence is the end all and be all.

Are you seriously claiming that because the Turkish state exists and came first that its actions are de facto superior or more moral to any action of the Kurds? The Kurds lived on those lands far longer...Does that matter at all in your twisted logic. If we follow your argument through to its logical conclusion then we should be asking how old everyone is so that we can determine who has a stronger claim to "existence" and therefore, whose argument is correct.

I'm not getting "lost" in historical details. You are the one harping about the deaths of a hundred or so Turkish teachers -- who shouldn't have been in Kurdistan in the first place -- that happened years ago and was never repeated since. You neglect the fact that the PKK is willing to give up its arms and prefers to give up its arms for a negotiated solution.

And you're the one who is justifying that it is a natural human reaction for Turkish military to take revenge on hundreds of innocent Kurdish civilians for the death of a Turkish teacher who is a tool of systematic state assimilation. Bir Turk dunya'ya bedel dir, degil mi? Before you get scared by me, take a look inside.

By the way, I have no problems being taught by a Turk, an Israeli or an American. It is the quality and the substance of my education that matters. In fact, I happily began learning Kurdish from a Jewish American.

~nistiman

~nistiman

Anonymous said...

Re: Machiavelli

I have to explicate my reference to Machiavelli. I wasn't just making a reference to a bastardized understanding of Machiavelli. Turkish policy vis-a-vis the Kurds is definitely how NOT to apply Machiavelli's principles. Cruelty well used is something that Machiavelli admires. It is quick, efficient and achieves a worthwhile aim (loyalty, unity, etc...).

"Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony."

"Hence it is to be remarked that, in seizing a state, the usurper ought to examine closely into all those injuries which it is necessary for him to inflict, and to do them all at one stroke so as not to have to repeat them daily; and thus by not unsettling men he will be able to reassure them, and win them to himself by benefits. He who does otherwise, either from timidity or evil advice, is always compelled to keep the knife in his hand; neither can he rely on his subjects, nor can they attach themselves to him, owing to their continued and repeated wrongs. For injuries ought to be done all at one time, so that, being tasted less, they offend less; benefits ought to be given little by little, so that the flavour of them may last longer."

Turkey has robbed millions of Kurds of their patrimony, committed enough wrongs to inspire hatred for not one but numerous generations to come, and obsessively continues to inflict injuries daily to the Kurdish populace.

Let the Turks use the Machiavellian card, but let them use it well for heaven's sake.

~nistiman

Turkish E.T. said...

Nistiman:

<<<"You neglect the fact that the PKK is willing to give up its arms and prefers to give up its arms for a negotiated solution.">>>

This is really not what I understand from current actions. And I hope you'll have a political party with hard enough balls to tell Turkish public that "they are ready to negotiate a solution" with a group which is labeled a terrorist organization by every official body in the world...

I am seriously claiming that the only reason PKK is labeled a terrorist organization is because Kurdistan does not exist. It is because they make their claim with bombs.

Now if you really believe that Turkey will give up one day, after years and years of bombs on oil pipelines, on touristic resorts, on schools... then go for it nistiman, maybe one day it'll come.

and "The Kurds lived on those lands far longer..." is just exactly what is against my point. it is to dive into this historical discussion that blurs the fact today, today a bomb explodes in an oil pipeline which effects and destablizes the entire region the kurds are living in... and it turns out kurds have done it! the existence of that bomb precedes all.

These are strong truths, and similar to the actions of Turkish military, one cannot defend these with elaborate thesis'.

I never defended any action of Turkish military. Machiavellian card is a card I would not play. Kurds has confused Turks by helping form Turkish Republic and then deciding to separate. And today at a time when borders are being lost there is no need for hatred and bitter memories.

The region is poor; this also exists before all else. I believe we have to work together to not be subjects of powers that are greater and more ignorant. No Kurd ever had to stay on the back of a bus in Turkey and this is only a sign that things can be better one day.

<<<"bir turk dunyaya bedeldir">>> "a turk is worth the world". To be honest I never understood what that meant even as a kid...
apparently not many do too:
http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=bir+turk+dunyaya+bedeldir

Anonymous said...

(I'm Elisher)

Turkish e.t.,
first believe me if I tell you sincerely that I appreciate your way of thinking, I find it's sane.
Very different from Reber!
I'm going to answer you franckly because I found in your plea several elements that show why despite your right way of thinking you're wrong on several points.
I ask you to forgive my English if it's not very good for I have not had the oportunity until now, as a French-Kurd living in France, to improve my English (but I have the will to improve it!). The first cause of your mistakes is ignorance of the case. That's why I obviously forgive you (lol!) and I'll be happy to inform you on some points.

Then I can tell you that I think the same things said by Nistiman and I find she (or he?) has answered you well.

To begin, I'll say: Yes, the PKK killed Turkish teachers who were not related with any cause, just teachers, I am sorry about it and I deeply condemn it.

And I don't think that (as you ironically say) we shouldn't mention that in this blog!
The fact is that blog is Mizgîn's one and her aim, for which I warmly support her, is to defend the Kurdish cause and to denounce the Turkish state atrocities.

I have no difficulty to admit that teachers or other civilians have been killed by PKK and I am sorry about it and I deeply condemn it,as I expect you to be sorry about and to deeply condemn the killing of more than 30 000 Kurds (amongst many other atrocities)by the Turkish state since 24 years.

The thing that disturbs me is that these mistakes of the PKK in this war are tirelessly mentionned only in one purpose: in order to demonize the PKK and to avoid to talk about the real problem which is the cause of the current situation in Kurdistan: the unjust handling of the so-called "Kurdish Question" by the undemocratic Turkish state.

Anonymous said...

(I'm Elisher)
"Only specifically these teachers killed in 1994 by Pkk."
"This (HRW) list doesn't mention any teachers killed in 1994."

Maybe because,Turkish e.t, because there weren't any teachers killed in 1994 by PKK.
Moreover I don't know where you saw that "PKK killed teachers in 1994".

Anonymous said...

(I'm Elisher)
"your "yes but listen to what happened before that." approach, your "yes but turks killed teachers too" approach is sickening me"

That's not exactely my approach. I don't try to justify the killing of civils, I try to show you why your way to approach these facts is wrong.

"You all claim PKK and it's actions are all fine"

Wrong. I never claimed that.
Have you claimed that Turkish state and its actions are all fine?
I don't think that you did it.
That's the same thing with me and the PKK.
The unique difference is that the Turkish state has greatly the most responsalility in the current situation and has the possibility to stop all the bloodshed when it wants. But the problem is here: it doesn't want to.

"You have trouble with your ideologies when some Turk comes along who does not approve his armies or governments previous actions nor does he approve PKK's killings which are not previous, but indeed present. One thing you should know is that there are a lot of us around who knows and does not approve the past but cannot do anything about it."

Wrong.
Franckly,I appreciate greatly meeting Turks like you, and I hope that they are even more than you say. I hope also that they'll react more because they can do a lot. Don't think that they (you) cannot do anything about it.


"You like your Turks ultranationalist just so you can hate freely."

You're misleading yourself.
I don't hate Turks. I hate ultranationalists whether they are Kurds or Turks.
The big, very big problem, is that that the great majority of ultranationalists are Turkish not Kurdish.
The world would be far better if ultranationalist Turks weren't so numerous. Unfortunately the 85 years-old Turkish system promotes this ultranationalism.
Kurds suffers from it but Turkish democrats too. And I hope (you seem to be one) you are a Turkish democrat.

Anonymous said...

(Elisher)
"but when someone like me comes along you wonder ".. would I really enjoy killing this guy?" and pull the trigger anyway."

No, you're wrong Turkish e.t.
I don't ever think whether I would kill him when I meet even an ultranationalist Turk, then why would I wonder enjoying killing you?
And as you can see, I don't pull the trigger away!

Anonymous said...

(Elisher)

I meant that I don't ever have any trigger to put away si why do you want me to pull one away?

Besides, one big problem is that in front of us Kurds and Turkish democrats, there are a lot of Turks who haven't so many scruples!

Anonymous said...

(Elisher)

"noone here is slightly condemning the death of these teachers"

Wrong.
I told you what was the first aim of this blog. And you can see that if you really want to talk about this case you have answers and at least condamnation by me.


"and everyone here is asking for more bomb attacks against Turkey"

Wrong, wrong and ..WRONG!!
Above all, everyone here is asking Turkish state to stop this war and this bloodshed!!

" and everyone here is presenting opinions that Turkish government, and even Turkish civilians are the only responsible for this situation... you scare me."

I know very well that Turkish civilians aren't responsible for this situation. They are misleaded by their state and its desinformation in a dirty psychological war.
I think that even most of ultranationalist Turks are victims and tools of this bad and dirty game. I'm lucid.

Conversely, Turkish state (Turkish gouvernement is often just a puppet)is THE ONLY responsible for this situation. And I can show you widely if you ask me to.

Anonymous said...

(Elîshêr)
"Second: You are getting lost in your own historical details. So allow me to tell one big statement that I believe should be our priority:

EXISTENCE PRECEDES ESSENCE. (...)

Now. In light of this statement, Turkey, as a country, exists. so the way you see these Turkish teachers going into Kurdistan, it is actually against this statement.
Kurdistan does not exist. No offense, there is or was just no kurdish school those kids can go to.

So some teacher who was given a task to teach in anatolia, was actually the only teacher who could be given that task by the only authority who could give that task. That teacher could have been me and I would take the task clueless of people like you who can put a hero cloak on simple murderers and claim I just dont understand the ethics of it all. :) "

Excuse me Turkish e.t, but I can also tell you that "the way you see these Turkish teachers going into Kurdistan, it is actually against this statement (EXISTENCE PRECEDES ESSENCE)!!

You arbritarily fixe "EXISTENCE"!!
Nistiman answered you well.

And here, "existence" is the fact is that Turkish state is unfair!!
Turkish state sending teachers to teach Turkish or to teach in Turkish to Kurdish pupils is not a problem.
The problem is that it's forbidden to these teachers to teach Kurdish children Kurdish language or in Kurdish!!
Even the simple evocation of a single contribution of the Kurds in the history of the country is banned.
We are talking about a people who are 20 millions inhabitants of Turkey!!! And another 20 millions in neighbouring states!

Anonymous said...

(Elisher)

"<<<"what sort of crazy would you need to have been in order to take up your post as a well intentioned school teacher in a Kurdish town? How innocent could these school teachers possibly be?">>>

Again, nistiman, existence precedes essence, I'm sure Turkish army has an explanation on attacking villages as well, but neither of us wants to hear it, I don't want to research all these here and there or give an elaborate reasons without even a slight feeling of condemnation over these. The fact is that Turkish army burned down innocent village, the fact is that PKK killed innocent teachers.

*I* as a Turk condemn burning of villages.

but if those villages harbor murderers of a teacher I knew, and refuse to give them up... I don't know, I'm human before I am a Turk."

This last sentence of you is un-understandable!!
Do you think Turkish army burning Kurdish villages is legitimate for you if they harbor "murderers of a teacher"??
Do you even think that Turkish army burnt these villages for this reason??
The reason for the burning of 4000 villages and towns (like Lice, Shirnakh,...) by Turkish army is that it doesn't want Kurds to be Kurds!!
It's clear.
It's unjustifiable.
All this war, all the handling of the "Kurdish Question" by Turkish state is unjustifiable.
Putting aside its barbarity, it's unjustifiable because the unique reason of all this is only RACISM.
And if you want further explanation, you can read on the blog of Hevallo the article of Ismail Besikci about this "specific Turkish racism".

"tough situation. so lets forget history."

Yes, tough.
But, we MUST not forget History. We just need to understand History. History teaches us how to act and mistakes to avoid.
What you name "history" is the mishandling of history in order to spread hatred, not the true History.

"Now in light of the discussions here as much as I try to be neutral, I see traces of insanity."

I too.
Unfortunately.

"I am about to loose it too."

I understand why.

"I mean, dude, you kill a teacher dude. :) Seriously, wake up, the kid that the teacher had taught would hardly loose his kurdish identity, as a matter of fact it is better of he is educated by a turk, an american or an israeli than he is not educated at all... you loose more of your culture by some uneducated kid without any options in life who joins the pkk instead of going to a turkish college!"

So what?
Don't you know the effects of the Turkish state's harsh policy of assimilation against Kurdish people?
Do you approve of it?
Do you know that MIT, in a secret report, labelled the population in Turkey, and it proudly labelled "5 millions citizens of Kurdish origin in the way of becoming Turks"?
By the way, we are the 19th of August, do you know why it's an important period of the year for the Kurds IN TURKEY?
Because in August 15th 1984, 24 years ago, PKK began the guerilla war againt Turkish state.

And do you know for which reason this start of the guerilla is so important fot Kurds IN TURKEY?

Because, for Kurds in Turkey, it was a REVOLUTION.
It triggered an awakening.
I have lived the period before IN TURKEY and the period after, so I can tell you very well the meaning of this revolution.
So, please ask us, ask you: "WHY?"

Aknowledging History is indispensable.

We are talking about a Kurdish people IN TURKEY which was between 1938 and 1984 at the edge of annihilation by an ethnocide or "cultural genocide"!

In western countries, we cry for Tibetans but why not for Kurds??

"instead of going to a turkish college"

Going to a Turkish college is not the problem.
And it's better for a child to go to school in Turkey even if there is a risk of assimilation than to not go to school at all.
It's the role of their parents to not let them to be assimilated.

But when in Turkey, the Kurdish children will be teached in their mother tongue at school before being taught Turkish, there will be less (very less)problems...

And I hope you understand now that it's at the base of the problem.



"I think I'm clueless as to who I am talking with here. did you guys go to college? are you writing from the mountain while eating around some camp fire or something?"

Believe me,some of us are really "writing from the mountain while sitting around some camp fire"! lol!
That's because a lot of guerillas were, before coming to mountains, students in Turkey or elsewhere!
My uncle studied till the fourth year in the prestigious Faculty of Politics of Istanbul before becoming a guerilla!


"arent you a kurd, and am I not a Turk and are we not writing in English?

apart from the fact that I live in USA, happily, without even a slight feeling of responsibility of -representing my turkish culture- I don't understand why today, in 2008, and you scared of loosing your culture entirely and why you are still bombing and still killing. stop for good already."

Let me again talk you franckly: you don't understand because you're ignorant.
Talking in Turkish studying in Turkish or another else language is not a probleme.
I love a particular Turkish proverb: "Bir lisan bir insan".

But Turkish state does not respect this proverb. It forbiddens Kurdish language and identity.

Anonymous said...

Elisher, I disagree with one of your main conclusions: your belief that Turkish e.t. is ignorant of the facts . But I believe he has sufficient knowledge of the facts. He is ignorant of a far more important thing -- justice. And that is something that I don't think can be taught with facts or information quite easily.

Turkish e.t. has said he disagrees with Turkish military policy but not with Turkish assimilationist policy against the Kurds. It gets under his skin when I mention "Kurdistan". The essence of the 'wrong' is not Turkey bombing Kurds but rather Turkey denying the Kurds. He wants an end to the physical violence, but he does not recognize the actual injustice.

He knows enough to decide whether the Kurds should be able to speak their language or practice their culture freely in a country where he admitted (I think) they were part founders. He thinks that because Kurds are free to live as Turks, there is no denial of fundamental rights.

The racist mentality is quite in tact. He is merely attempting to find a socially acceptable means of asserting his racism.

~Nistiman

Anonymous said...

What do you answer to Nistiman's analyse, Turkish e.t?

That's your turn to be tested.
You blamed us for your accusation about the killing of teachers.

But answer to these questions.

Are you ignorant of justice?

Do you disagree with Turkish military policy but not with Turkish assimilationist policy against the Kurds?

Does it get under your skin when we mention "Kurdistan"?

Do you want an end to the physical violence, but by, at the same time,not recognizing the actual injustice of Turkey denying the Kurds?

Do you think that the Kurds should be able to speak their language or practice their culture freely in Turkey?

Do you think that because Kurds are free to live as Turks, there is no denial of fundamental rights?

Do you also have this specifically Turkish racism in your mentality?

Are you merely attempting to find a socially acceptable means of asserting this racism?

Anonymous said...

"No. I can't imagine Turkish state killing teachers."

This sentence in particular made me think that Turkish e.t was ignorant of the facts and of all the so-called "Kurdish Question".
(I say "so-called "Kurdish Question" because it is in fact a "Turkish problem" based on the Turkish problem of identity since 1923.)

Turkish e.t, if you "KNEW", you would know that Turkish state killed a lot of Kurdish teachers in his war against Kurds.
You would be quite able to "imagine Turkish state killing teachers".

Two of these teachers were cousins of mine. One has been brought by Turkish "özel timler" ("special teams", contre-guerilla) in front of his school and was let died on a roadside. The other died under torture in custody.

Three other teachers in my family have been arrested and tortured by Turkish army or police.

And we talk only about teachers, I can mention you avocats, journalists, students, elementary school pupils, physicians, human rights activits, poets (yes, you read well: poets, even 72 years-old),businessmen,...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous was me, Elishêr

"Can you please give an example of a Kurdish teacher killed? Are we assuming that there was going to be a kurdish state formed and some of the kurds around the region were going to be trained as Kurdish teachers teaching Kurdish history and Kurdish language

or just Kurdish teachers, teaching Turkish yet still killed by Turkish army?Were there any?
Confusing."


They were Kurdish teachers, teaching Turkish yet still killed by Turkish army.
I gave you the example of my family, naturally without giving their name because it's also mine.
But you don't need to do a lot of researches in order to find the civilians killed by Turkish army. You can read it on this blog, on the Hevallo's one and many others.
And you showed us that you knew how to find some facts when you want to.

Do you said "confusing"? lol
...

Anonymous said...

(Elisher)

"This is really not what I understand from current actions. And I hope you'll have a political party with hard enough balls to tell Turkish public that "they are ready to negotiate a solution"

I hope also that there will be one day a Turkish political party with hard enough balls to tell Turkish public that "they are ready to negotiate a solution" with PKK.
Unfortunately, only Turgut Özal did it and was killed because of it.

"with a group which is labeled a terrorist organization by every official body in the world..."

Again, you are confusing everything. Very funny!
The unique reason of "every (YOU said it,despite it's wrong)official body in the world" labelling PKK as a terrorist organization is in order to please Turkish state.
When Turkish state will be reasonnable and negociate with PKK, NOBODY will have to label PKK as a terrorist organisation!

If world system were fair, it's Turkey that would be labelled a terrorist state!!

Anonymous said...

(Elisher)

"I am seriously claiming that the only reason PKK is labeled a terrorist organization is because Kurdistan does not exist. It is because they make their claim with bombs."

Really?
Very sad.
Do you know that PKK tried to make its claim with flowers?
Unfortunately, it failed.
Sad, isn't it?

I explained you the real reason before.

"Now if you really believe that Turkey will give up one day, after years and years of bombs on oil pipelines, on touristic resorts, on schools... then go for it nistiman, maybe one day it'll come."

Again, you're confusing cause and consequence.
Turkish state is responsible of all this.
Believe me, if Turkey were a democratic state, it would be NO WAR with Kurds in Turkey.
The day that turkey's constitution recognizes Kurds' identity and teaching in their language is promoted, when there will be no " bombs on oil pipelines, on touristic resorts, on schools (YOU said it, despite it's wrong: PKK never exploded schools!!)..."

Turkish E.T. said...

“in order to demonize the PKK and to avoid to talk about the real problem which is the cause of the current situation in Kurdistan: the unjust handling of the so-called "Kurdish Question" by the undemocratic Turkish state.”

Maybe mizgin can help by opening a topic where we can prepare a numbered list of facts on Turkish, Kurdish Issue.

Reasons Turkish state is undemocratic:

1– poverty
2– unstabilized region
3– historical friction neighbours
4– formation of different cultures

other related reasons:
5– ties to old cultures and values (tied to 1, 2)
6– the disconnect from history caused by extreme reforms only 80 years ago.



Solutions to an undemocratic state:

1– wealth and the education, free-time, and cultural understanding it brings
2– a stabilized region with constant communication with neighbouring countries, no borders, trade unions, cultural understanding
3– well prepared research into historical frictions and the mistakes made.
-
4– natural reforms on culture and cultural values
5– well defined national identity to understand who we were and who we are.


(I have to say “alleged” for paranoid reasons: ) Alleged Mistakes of Turkish government on Kurdish Issue
1– To undermine Kurdish cultures right to exist with its own identity: language, names, artwork, music but mistakes strictly do not include: undermining the right for a soverign state.
2– To misunderstand the meaning of a Kurdistan as a soverign state, rather than a region formed up in majority by Kurds. Kurdistan does not necessarily mean borders, isolation of trade, isolation of cultures. It means providing official support to Kurdish culture while improving communication between cultures. (but I guess not a “United States of Turkey”… and I really don’t know if there is an example of a -poor– nation with 2 seperate isolated languages. tough stuff.)
3– Fail to provide the security of the Kurdish culture through establishment of official Kurdish channels of communication, media (though there was a single, state controlled tv channel and handful of radio stations in Turkey up until late 80’s)
4– Following a series of actions, actions which Turks claim were provoked, and which Kurds claim were nonprovoked and ever-existent, try to dissolve the Kurdish culture into one Turkish culture by banning kurdish names, kurdish language and kurdish music from national communication mediums. (a major portion of these bans were lifted and scrapped by year 2000)

I am hoping this is the complete list of simplest and highest level explanations we can find.

Recent improvements in Kurdish identity in Turkey, until 2003:

1– Ease on ban on Kurdish political parties
2– Lift strict regulations in official media language, official kurdish tv programming, kurdish classes
3– Lift ban on communication mediums, kurdish songs on tv

Recent improvements in PKK’s methods
1– None. After a series of self declared truce’s, call for truce’s, partial truce’s where a section of pkk declares ceasefire but a section does not, keep on bombing civilians and the region claiming success in “Destroying the stability of an entire region.”

Recent improvements in Kurdish culture:
1– None. As seen by the example of a kurdish singer joining the pkk only to die on a battle-field… where do the dead songs go?
2– None also because of the different social habits of Kurdish villages than Turks? Clans and stuff maybe?

The issues on “Solutions to an undemocratic state” the PKK addresses:

1– None. A bunch of poorly educated bandits on a mountain claim they have a right to intellectual discussions with the powers of the world while the only thing they know, and their entire social circle know, is how to shoot people and plant bombs. As seen by the video here: http://rastibini.blogspot.com/2008/08/15-tebax-2008-proz-be.html

It’s like, an islamic army without a book.

Elisher, sorry to hear about your cousins but I did not understand why they were killed by the Turkish army… And about PKK being an officially terrorist org, you are basically saying pkk is a terrorist org because Turkey wants it to be so and this is reverse… but I can’t go into this, it’s a spiral that won’t end.

“wrong: PKK never exploded schools”
I am ready to listen what you are going to say about what happened on January, 2008, but make sure you have your case strong:

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2008/01/11/son/sontur56.asp?prm=0,46173778

Anonymous said...

“wrong: PKK never exploded schools”
I am ready to listen what you are going to say about what happened on January, 2008, but make sure you have your case strong: Milliyet article"

You won't be able to understand anything at the Kurds' situation if your source is Milliyet or Hürriyet or another Turkish media of the psychological war.

PKK made an official declaration on this very sad event and you can read it on this blog.

In january 3th 2008, some PKK members in Diyarbekir decided themselves on their own initiative to implement this bomb attack in Diyarbekir without referring the matter to the direction of the military wing. They targeted a military bus which transported 50 soldiers and the pilots of the military planes that had been bombing PKK camps in december 2007.
Usually PKK doesn't strike Turkish army in the center of the towns in order to avoid civilians deaths.
In this bomb attack, Turkish state didn't say whether any soldiers died, they only said that there were "70 injured persons" amongst them 30 soldiers and 7 civilians died, amongst whom 5 were secondary school pupils. These students were coming out from a private establishment preparing for the exam for entry in university.
They were Kurdish civilians passing by there.
It's an outrage that they were killed in this attack. That made me and other Kurds very sad and angry.
PKK apologized oficially for these unwanted civilian deaths in an attack of which the PKK wasn't aware that it was going to be implemented by a person on his own initiative.

So without playing down this shocking event, it wasn't a bomb attack against a school AT ALL!

You will understand the difference between PKK which is not a terrorist organization and the Turkish state which is really a terrorist state when you will have compared their stance in the face of civilian deaths.

Before this bomb attack, Turkish state itself implemented bomb attacks in Diyarbekir, targeting civilians deliberately in order to terrorize the Kurdish population:
-in June 2007 at a bus stop, wounding 7 persons
-in September 2006 in a public park, killing 11 persons amongst whom 7 children.

From March 28, 2006 to April 5, 2006 , violent riots occurred between Kurdish citizens and security forces following the funerals of 14 Kurdish rebels who were killed during a fight with the army in Mus-Bingol area, on March 24, 2006.About 600 people would have been detained, including children. 16 civilians were killed, amongst them 3 low-aged chidren by Turkish police and army.
Do you think that Erdogan apologized?
No, he didn't.
At the opposite (you can read it on this blog): he said that killing women, elderly persons or babies was legitimate!!

You have all the informations on internet. Just open your eyes.

Turkish E.T. said...

Here is why and how someone becomes a turkish teacher:
http://benbugunbunuogrendim.blogspot.com/2008/08/21tercih.html

Anonymous, you have to understand that an organization is responsible for it's actions and actions that are done under it's name or by it's trained members. So this includes this bombing done by "some PKK members" independent from the center... PKK is responsible for this. PKK did it. If one day PKK#1 declares truce, and yet "some pkk members" as PKK#2 keep planting bombs, PKK is responsible for them.

You perfectly know how to blame entire Turkish government in it's similar independent cases, and I take that blame rather than avoiding like you do. Turkish government and Turkish army is also responsible for it's ex-officials.

PKK member plants a bomb 5 meters from an educational institution where students are, and then you claim pkk never blew up a school"

The bomb destroyed a building, a school...

Each time a civilian dies in Turkey, whether a Kurd or a Turk, Erdogan apologizes. You know this and you are portraying what happens during a "riot" as something that happens during a -regular day-.

When Turkish workers do non-permitted demonstrations in Istanbul: Workers die.

When Kurds do non-permitted demonstrations (riots) in southern Turkey: Kurds die.

Had such events happened in Usa, results would be the same.

Turkish E.T. said...

benbugunbunuogrendim.blogspot.com

/2008/08/21tercih.html

Anonymous said...

Yes, Nistiman.
Unfortunately, you were right.
I hoped you were wrong.
But Turkish e.t 's answers showed me clealy that as you said,"he has sufficient knowledge of the facts. He is ignorant of a far more important thing -- justice. And that is something that I don't think can be taught with facts or information quite easily."

Very sad...

Turkish E.T. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Turkish E.T. said...

yes, your jungle justice who sees itself higher than any internationally established body is too much for me.

"..Neighbours who take up arms during a conflict, for example, shift status, becoming combatants rather than civilians, which can confuse calculations of civilian death tolls...."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572969.stm

Anonymous said...

You were the first and unique person to advocate a "jungle justice".
I always advocated the end of this war with the end of oppression of the Kurds by Turkish state.
Conversely you said for example this:
"*I* as a Turk condemn burning of villages.
but if those villages harbor murderers of a teacher I knew, and refuse to give them up... I don't know, I'm human before I am a Turk. "

If that's not "jungle justice", what is it then?

Elîshêr

Turkish E.T. said...

"...and refuse to give them up... I don't know, I'm human before I am a Turk."

I take this statement back. For sure there was no point in portraying an entire village full of women, children, elderly as warriors, I apologize. But I defend that the region is going through a phase of -insanity- and we both have to calm down...

Anonymous said...

"But I defend that the region is going through a phase of -insanity- and we both have to calm down..."

That's why you have to recognize that, before all, Turkish state MUST stop his oppression against Kurdish identity and change his mentality.

We can be involved in controversy endlessly by always blaming the other side for its faults.
But thus what do we get?

As your maxim (existence before essence), there is a French story with chicken and egg: which of both is coming first?

For the question that concerns us, what comes first and what is the cause off all the current Turkish-Kurdish problem is the unjust treatment of the Kurds by the Turkish state.

When its mentality and its behaviour will have changed, then there will be no war, no conflict, no bloodshed.

That's as simple as that.
The problem is: when is Turkish state going to accept justice for the Kurds?

After how much bloodshed?

We only want legitimate national rights.

That's why I told you that Turkish democrats have to be more active in order to force Turkish state to become democratic and to resolve problems in a fair way.

Elîshêr

Anonymous said...

Turkish E.T., for what its worth, and I know it isn't much coming from an anonymous person on the internet, I appreciate you taking the time to be candid about your position and possibly to re-evaluate it. I am ready and willing to re-evaluate my own position but frankly, I have boiled it down to the fact that a state's right to exist on its own terms is not equal and certainly not morally superior to a people's right within a state to their basic rights - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That the state is formed in order to fulfill our individual rights is for me, as it was for the founders of the United States of America (so, I am in good company,lest you suspect I was taught on the mountains) IS a SELF-EVIDENT truth. Perhaps, you can think of it as Individual precedes the State therefore, the State must have the consent of the Individual.

Your view that we, the Kurds, do not respect international bodies and instead promote a Jungle Justice actually discredits your own arguments. As Elisher implied, there is really no Justice in the Jungle, only a Law of Jungle, and just as we cannot speak of Justice in international relations, it is the strongest animal, or the strongest state, that gets to have his way -- ie. Might Makes Right. But this has nothing to do with Justice really, and accordingly, what the State Department says who is and who is not a terrorist has little bearing on the issue of justice.

I have more faith in the Courts, such as the International Court of Justice, where Justice is actually part of the equation. And in democratic countries where the issue of minority rights and armed rebellion have been considered, such as in Canada's Supreme Court, the rights of minorities to self-determination and their guarantee to cultural and political rights have been upheld.

Just some things to consider...

~nistiman

Mizgîn said...

We all know who it was that was bombing civil servants in The Southeast and we all know who was terrorizing the population of The Southeast. Erdal Sarizeybek and Altay Tokat confessed to it.

And by the time they did those things, PKK was in the process of evolving and changing its tactics to fit the situation, something the pasas and the regime still haven't learned.

Turkish E.T. said...

Mizgin.
"...we all know who..."

We all know we want peace, justice and prosperity. That doesn't necessarily mean we know anything.

Elîshêr
"That's why you have to recognize that, before all, Turkish state MUST stop his oppression against Kurdish identity and change his mentality."

Can you honestly say that, more recently, the Turkish state is not on the path to stopping this? slowly but surely the state is doing everything it can to bring prosperity, whether it be the efforts to join EU, or the effort to bring Kurdish the rights they deserve.


I'm only saying the region is too sensitive now to let PKK continue it's aggressive methods.

pkk bombing turkish army.
turkish army bombing pkk.
pkk bombing civilians.
turkish army "emptying" kurdish civilian villages.
turks independent from the army bombing the pkk and civilians.
kurds independent from pkk bombing the turkish army and civilians.
turks disguised as kurds bombing turks and kurds.
kurds disguised as pkk bombing turks and kurds...


for those of us, who will be living in the region: what will happen when -foreign powers- step in this game? what happens when russia, usa, iraq starts bombing kurds and turks in disguise of kurds and Turks? The region cannot withstand those games and not this violence, and collapse.

I see messages here on this blog of this will for the region to collapse (celebrations on the bombing of the pipeline) . Some people have lost their hope on peace, on kurds and on Turks so much that they say "let there be armageddon.". This is scary. I don't know about you but I want to live the rest of my life in that region and I love it independently of the humans that live there.

Turkish E.T. said...

bring back the Romans.

Canavaro aka Birindar said...

Well guys,

Turkey is the most barbarian nation on earth beside animals. PKK doesn't aim a great Kurdistan, because PKK is a pioneer of Turkey and the most important is that PKK wants to destroy the whole Kurdish nation by fighting Kurds against each other (like the beginning of PKK and like the Irak/ Iran war in eighties).